Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Salt Lake City: universities, gated)

[DC2BE]

I don't live in Utah, nor am I LDS, though my best friend is and I have gone to church with him. But I don't have to be to know that if you don't like it, then move. I noticed that you are moving, and that is exactly what you need to do, don't dwell on it, just leave. And it's not like these mormons came and moved to where you were and surrounded you. It is widely known that this area is very saturated with Mormons, so it probably wasn't the wisest decision to move there to began with. Just chalk it up as a loss and leave. If you are possibly worried that the next place you move in Utah will be similar, than leave the state. Because the Mormons aren't leaving anytime soon. I'm not trying to be rude but I'm just saying life is too short to dwell on stuff like this, just leave and focus on the next place....

Just an analogy......If I was an atheist, I wouldn't move to the bible belt (the south).....I would probably live somewhere like California....Make your next moving decision carefully...

[Cycle]

dc2be,thanks, but surely you realize we have already thought of that...We didn't move to Utah because we chose to, we were relocated here with my husbands job. I didn't have any concerns about moving to Utah because I have lived in so many other places and have always found that the good outweighs the bad and you have to look past the negative stuff...I never expected or imagined that it would be like this, no there were no preconceived notions,,,we were all very excited to move here! In case you didn't know, Kansas has no mountains...we were thrilled about skiing and snowboarding and we always heard what wonderful people lived here and how family oriented they were, since we have six kids we thought it would be great and we would fit right in..."make your next moving decision carefully" thanks for that insight, but when your husband is a top executive with a national organization you tend to go where they tell you too!!! I'm not sure why so many people on here want to excuse the discrimination we are experiencing..."it is widely know that this area is very staurated with Mormons, so it probably wasn't the wisest decision to move there to begin with" what kind of sense does that make? I have never seen a sign that said Mormons Welcome all others move somewhere else... That's just ridiculous, it's like saying this was a white neighborhood and a black person should have known better than to move there, they should have known they would be discriminated against! Does that sound right to anyone on this thread?Cycle

[markg91359]

Cycle,

First of all, as a Mormon and long time Utah resident let me say I'm sorry for what you have experienced. I do not make light of your experiences. I can empathize to some degree with you because during my life I have lived outside Utah and experienced religious discrimination myself.

I think religion can be a very divisive force. It seems to create an "us vs. them" mentality or climate in too many places. This is ironic since as Christians we are taught to love our neighbors.

Religious divisions can be a complex thing. While I am LDS, I am not as active or "faithful" as many of my neighbors are. I can tell you that we have often felt that some of our neighbors have not treated us well because they perceive we are less steadfast in the faith than they are. So, what I am saying is that even many LDS people in the community often feel they are thought of us as less than equals.

I would not counsel anyone to stay where they don't feel welcome. Life is simply to short. Even for someone working in Utah County, its a short commute from Sandy, Draper, and the south part of Salt Lake County. I think all of those neighborhoods would be more comfortable than Utah Valley. As some have said, Utah Valley is particularly conservative. I cannot think of any city in Utah County, I'd choose to live in.

Best wishes in finding a happier location.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by markg91359

Cycle,

First of all, as a Mormon and long time Utah resident let me say I'm sorry for what you have experienced. I do not make light of your experiences. I can empathize to some degree with you because during my life I have lived outside Utah and experienced religious discrimination myself.

I think religion can be a very divisive force. It seems to create an "us vs. them" mentality or climate in too many places. This is ironic since as Christians we are taught to love our neighbors.

Religious divisions can be a complex thing. While I am LDS, I am not as active or "faithful" as many of my neighbors are. I can tell you that we have often felt that some of our neighbors have not treated us well because they perceive we are less steadfast in the faith than they are. So, what I am saying is that even many LDS people in the community often feel they are thought of us as less than equals.

I would not counsel anyone to stay where they don't feel welcome. Life is simply to short. Even for someone working in Utah County, its a short commute from Sandy, Draper, and the south part of Salt Lake County. I think all of those neighborhoods would be more comfortable than Utah Valley. As some have said, Utah Valley is particularly conservative. I cannot think of any city in Utah County, I'd choose to live in.

Best wishes in finding a happier location.

nice post.

as far as the bolded statement, i know what you mean. i'm pretty friggin' active, and i still get that sometimes, or i at least perceive that this is what i'm getting.

changing subject: cycle still has to come to our party if she and her family are still in the area when it happens. it's actually mandatory; consider it a cd/forum/utah homeowners association meeting (i know, i know: legalized communism)...

aaron out.

[carlymac]

Cycle, no one has excused any discrimination you are feeling. We just realize everyone perceives their situation differently. Aussie American seems to have had a very positive experience in her Utah Valley neighborhood. I've searched out other forums and haven't come across even one person complaining as much as you have. So I'm assuming either you had very bad luck in choosing a neighborhood or you are not as positive or easy-going and friendly person as you say (think) you are. Your credibility has been an issue from the beginning. We haven't heard back from you about any follow-up efforts you have made since posting this thread a month or so ago to DO the things people need to do to make friends- invite people over, go to some LDS function, read and study up on the predominant religion to try to understand it. You don't have to become a Mormon. No one expects that of you. etc. So your sincerity in wanting to have friends also comes into question. All we ever hear is complaints from you. If you have decided it truely is your neighbors' fault that you have no friends, then there is no point in you even responding anymore. EVERYONE except for a few have expressed their concern for you and your situation, but you continue to express your opinion that it's discrimination by Mormons, pure and simple and seem to refuse any other explanations. Again, you've proven yourself to be stubborn about anyone trying to make suggestions that might help. You didn't want help from the very beginning. You only wanted to complain. And "warn" others to avoid Utah Valley. Enough others (non-Mormons) have come come on hear to prove your theory about Mormons not completely true but we never see you responding to them in any way, unless it's to whine at them for not living your life.

We're sorry for you. But after dragging this thing through the muck for the last month, it's looking hopeless that you have any intentions of trying to be happy in Utah. Your happiness is what YOU make of it. I'm sure this is a situation you can overcome. I'm positive you could make friends- real friends in your neighborhood if you really wanted to. But I get the feeling you relish the negative attention you get more than the idea of being accepted. If I'm wrong, prove it by doing something other than complaining.

This has gotten so old. And sad.

[carlymac]

I don't know why this whole thing gets to me. I don't want to come across as gagning up on you. Everyone deserves love, attention and friendship. Sorry your not getting enough. I'm also sorry Mormons seem to be so hard hearted. They really aren't. Just absorbed in their own lives. Don't give up.

[Cycle]

Carlymac,
Please don't apologize for something that you posted, if you were truly sorry you would have edited or deleted the post...you control it. Maybe you should take a look at why this whole thing is getting to you so badly, there may be an issue you are not dealing with because my life and my experiences shouldn't get you that upset. You are being very defensive and every time you say you are not attacking me you follow it up with a personal attack on my credibility, my intentions and tell me that I am relishing the negative attention...Give it up! You people are not going to bully me into admitting that it is something other than the mormon factor IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. I have lived in so many different places and experienced so many other cultures, I know how to make friends, I know how to have neighborhood parties, I know how to go to avon/candle parties, I know how to get involved and get along, I am an expert at adapting, I am not studpid or vapid or vacuous or self centered or egotistical or paranoid or schizophrenic or anything else you can come up with, I am just a middle aged, middle class white mother of six with a working husband who is having a difficult experience and finding it impossible to assimilate into my community due to the differences in religion. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

If you want to know what I have done to try and get along with my neighbors I have attended community bar-b-ques and was completely ignored, I have taken food to the sick(when my oldest sons friend told me the person was sick), I have repeatedly walked my neighborhood attempting to start conversations, I have encouraged my kids at every turn to make friends and play with the other kids, I have made an effort to go outside when I see neighbors walking by and wave at them, I have gone to the neighborhood chili cookoff, I have asked on three different occasions for the phone number and contact information of the pack leader for boy scouts so that my 12yr old can go, I was so excited at the end of the summer when one neighbor came over (the one from the first day) and said he was sorry for not being a good neighbor as he hadn't seen or spoken to us one time since we first moved in (this was after school started so we had been here for about four months already) He was the youth group leader for the older kids and while me and my son were standing outside he mentioned that the youth group was going water skiing the next night as an activity and wanted to know if my son wanted to come with them, there were four kids going. My son was ecstatic and I was thrilled, I immediately said yes and he said that he would come pick my son up the next night, and I asked him also about the scout leader for my 12 yr old, he said he would write down the name and number for me to contact and I gave him our home phone number so that he could just call us. The next night my son is standing outside at 5:30 waiting for them to come pick him up and the neighbor comes over and says they had to cancel the outing because three of the four weren't going so they were going to reschedule (ouch) so I said I understood and asked him again about the scout leader for my 12 yr old and he said he would have to get back to me...I still have never heard from him again, never stopped by to ask my son to go with the youth group and never received a response about the scout leader. There are so many other things that I have tried, you have no idea the lengths I have gone to in an effort to become a part of this neighborhood...much less what my kids have done and gone through trying to make friends. If this has gotten so old and sad to you, imagine what it feels like for my children!

[SW Native]

Wow...too many pages to read back on. Well seems that Cycle had a bad experience in UT. Sorry about that Cycle. I had problems too after I moved to UT. I would like to post all of it but too little time right now. I will some other time though. So in a nutshell, I graduated high school, moved to provo for school and to be closer to the church since I was on my way to joining, got here, mormons here WAY different than mormons back home, had issues with them and the church. canceled baptism, got lots of question from people, explained why to a few, they didn't think much of it, shunning ensued, moved out of apartment complex into another one.

I know I know...too abstract. But that's what happened. A more concrete story to follow later. Best wishes cycle and so sorry for whats going on. When I have time, I will read this whole thread and see what I can do to help. Now off to home depot. Later guys.

[Irish4evr]

Interesting story....Perhaps you are trying too hard. I have resided in Utah...know quite a few LDS folks, and other's...Being Irish, Catholic and quite proud of it, I live under the premise of "live and let live"....Utah is a big, beautiful State....and not all people within the LDS church act and or treat others as you describe.....however I don't question your experiences for one moment.

Having a law enforcement background can make one hyper-sensitive to society in general......just a thought.

While living back East, I was in a community that basically "feared" and shunned LDS followers. Young LDS people, on mission would occasionally be observed traveling the streets, "spreading the word"...so to speak and dealing with much of the same social bastardism as you describe. For whatever reason....they never seemed to knock ony door...One very hot day, a couple young gentlemen came walking by, when I noticed that they suddenly became very quiet, eyes dropped straight to the ground....Hey spoke, rather loudly..."Hey....you guys lost....or what". Very poiltely one responded, "No Sir, just passin the word"...."I said....well it's mighty warm out here....how about a cold glass of water"....The expression on their faces were priceless....

To make a long story short...we talked very little about religion....we chatted about sports, their being "homesick", school, family....weather...

Shortly after they departed, and days to follow several of my neighbors questioned if I was considering "converting to that religion"....or what was I doing talking to them Mormons...Hell, I even noticed a few less "waves".

At first I was a little shocked by the blunt, ignorant questioning, but quickly said..."Let me ask you.....what do you really know about the "Mormons"....and in particular....what do you really know about those young kids out there following their faith"....there was no answer...I said....Well, in my eyes they were 2 young kids, a long way from home, simply looking for acceptance...yes their goal and purpose is to share their beliefs....mine are different than theirs, thats OK....we still had a lot to talk about.

A short time later the young guys were back in the neighborhood, looking quite rejected. I asked them what was up, and one said..."Man this place really doen't like us"....I said buddy....listen close....it is not you they don't like...it it what they think you represent....Part fear of the unknown, part fear of change...but belive me...it is not you. They still had another three months left on their mission and were seriously considering calling it a day. I said..."Look....there are a lot of ignorant people in this world....put the Book of Mormon aside for just a while, and allow yourself, and these people to get to know you for who you are....not what they presume you represent".

Some will shun you.....that's OK....some will approach with extreme caution...that's even better....some will be full of questions....answer them honestly. You will learn and grow from this experience and hopefully do will they....but whatever you do....don't abort your mission...we are all here for a reason...now...How about them Red Sox.....

I guess my point in all this is....."live and let live"...be a good neighbor...but don't try to be a good neighbor too hard....The sad part of this story is your children...their memories will be what causes later distain in life, particularly for that specific faith, and not all followers of the LDS faith act or behave in that manner.

As I said much earlier, "the world is full of ignorant people" and faith has no boundries ! Good luck.....and I hope life improves soon....for the sake of your children.....and their children..!

[warandpeaceisme]

Dear Cycle redheaded lady,
Greetings from New Mexico! i read your post and skimmed the rest of the replies, which made me laugh, as i already knew how the 'some' of the responses would unfold. i also have experienced ALL of those things, except for the party invite (i didn't think i could handle so many kids at my little house...if they had shown up...)

...to begin with....i guess you could say i am LDS...on paper...LOL!...well sort of....I no longer go to church because of my experience in Utah-south of the mountain...even now....i feel no need to go....but i'm not so much bitter that i have sent for my name to removed from the church records....but in due time...i'll make a final decision...after i get the bad taste out of my mouth called Utah Valley....

....i was a newly divorced mother of three when i fled for Utah...figured that the LDS ppl had it figured out and i could possibly raise my kids in the Utah Valley and finally heal from my huge ordeal.....

....We moved into a small house that had a good price....luck was on my side, found a house for rent....as i had pulled in only that morning...i called the number on the For Rent sign and the man sounded nice....he asked if i had kids and he said he wanted to meet us first before he made a decision....when i arrived at his shop....he looked us over and he said he didn't think it would work out....(i'm native american by the way, no blonde hair or blue eyes here...)....then i quickly stated that i was an 'LDS' from New Mexico....and his demeanor changed quite fast....(i'm used to this sort of things as a minority)....so...i played that LDS card promptly....he asked where i was staying....i said my aunties house for the night....he said he would call me....that evening he did call and said his wife wanted to meet me and my boys and my little girl....luckly my aunt has assimilated quite well...and her home was LDS perfection....potpourri and wooden craft decor galore....They were satisftied with what they saw and offered us the house....(we sure got checked over!)...but whatever...i needed a home for my kiddies....

....my neighbors were the same....everyone introduced themselves and invited us to all the church activities....being a culinary arts graduate....i had to chuckle at their cute recipe books they shoved at me, they said a young single mother would need these...and some of the casseroles were not too bad........

...my boys joined the scouts...and that was quite funny....the first activity was at the church...and the scout troop were doing some kind of 'Native' initiation type thing....with a feathered head dress and all....they sure thought we'd really love that....talk about stereo typing us....LOL!!!....then after so many minutes of this white guy in a head dress trying to act all stoic...i had had enough....i said my thank you's and left...my boys were not amused....cause the other boys were telling them that now they were blood brothers....

....the church was also so cold...we sat in a very looonnnng pew, alone....no one would sit by us?!?!...conversations were rehearsed. well seemed like...un-endearing really....well their lives were too....all planned out for them....weeks at a time....little league...relief society...church ball (pathetic)....family home evening....yada...yada...yada....I just rolled with it....THEN! it came out....divorced woman are pittied...and we are not seen as well as other women....Sunday school was a slap in the face....so i got up and left church for good.... no thank you....church in New Mexico was more sensitive.....though i was new to the religion....i love my heritage and my life....don't sh*t on me please....

....my boys!...my youngest was in 1st grade...and my second boy was in third....turns out they were being bullied at school too....by LDS boys...i thought...hmmmm...why?....we talked about it....i visited the school and they said they were unaware of any thing going on with my boys, though my boys said they told on them...the school said that my boys probably were just trying to ADJUST....pft!.....well...one morning....it had gotten physical...my younger boy was being pushed down on the asphalt....and my older boy ran over and pushed the kid off him (this kid was a 5th grader)...and it came out into a shoving match....then a fight broke out...6 boys in all...my boys said they just started swinging....covering each other....i guess they did okay...as they weren't hurt when i came to get them.... good job.....(although i don't condone fighting).....i was phoned at work and was asked to come into the prinicipals office....she was very upset with me?!?!...said my boys had anger management problems...wow, they are such shy quiet kids too....even the police was there....and the other kids parents were there too...and those boys were also 5th graders....funny i thought...
....i guess the kids were beat up pretty good....they had bloody noses and scraps....and i asked how they knew it was my boys that caused such damage ....the other boys said because they are the only BROWN babies on the playground!.."NICE" i thought....i told the principal to shove it...as i was just in here regarding this bullying issue...and the secretary looked that other way...and that my boys were worried this whole time!....she said nothing....I turned and hugged my boys....though they were in total tears......the principal threatened to suspend them...if they didn't apologize to the kids and their parents....I then asked my boys if these were the boys who had been picking on them...and they said yes....i examined the sniffling bullies and then stared into the other mother's faces....for a long moment, then i realized i knew who they were...(**see basketball moms below)....I looked into one mother's eyes until she shuttered....i then said...very politely...."i'll take their suspension...as they did nothing wrong in my mind... we are taught to always stand up for what is RIGHT...and what we believe in..." ...they said nothing else....i gathered my boys things...and walked out....

.....now...for the work place...i busted my a** for a construction company....i worked for an LDS man...figured i'd have a pleasant work environment....at first...i sold myself at the job interview...i am a welder and construction savvy gal by trade...just finished school....and he bet on me...so i felt like i needed to earn my wage....because i was a woman, a native....a single woman....i wasn't about to fail....i couldn't...

...i became the constuction coodinator there....and he couldn't find one other manager/coordinator that worked as hard....i had three cells...i read plans...i worked with the engineers....i hauled cement blankets....i met with city officials...i obtained permits....etc...etc...etc...he ran me ragged...but i was happy as hell...cause....they came to need me....when i was home sick....my phones were off the hook!...i was still managing in bed....as time went on...he demanded more and more from me.....and i gave and gave...for only 15 an hour....and come to found out...i was being extremely under paid....in this utah area....the going rate was 30 an hour....for 1/2 of my work load....HA!...i finally got balls-ie...and asked for a raise....he said sure...a dollar more would be enough....i was like WHAT?!?!?...and he achingly went up to 18 an hour...i was like...okay then....
....but shortly after...i happened to be taking some files to his office and i dropped some papers....i was on the floor when i heard him call me a racial name...'where is that *****'.....i freaked out....and walked in and said this *****....he put his foot in his mouth....and i quit..... p.s. he was suppose to be in the presidency....part...of the LDS org....they called me and called me...i never picked back up....screw them!

....so that was that....shopping became ugly too, i just couldn't pretend i was okay being treated the way we were, i was really miserable....so i started doing my shopping on Sundays! no mormons there...if they were...i looked at them like....what are you doing here....
.....i had a second job at the city rec center....i refereed basketball games and coached....now there is where you see the devil jump out of those LDS moms and dads .....as a ref...i got cussed at....put down...you name it....so i had enough and started to throw ppl out of the gym....ref rules....i figured....we can settle it on Sunday...when your in character....
....as time went on....i just pulled away from it all...i took my kids to SLC for activities.....like lagoon on Sundays....on Saturdays...we traveled out of town to hike trails...etc.....
.....and when the school year finished.....i left for home... NM!

....so i'm quit impressed that you have tried so hard....i just threw it all up in the air...and focused on keeping my kids loved and happy.....

....i've told my story to other LDS members...and they apologize and tell me that i can't base my feelings and thoughts on 'members' of the church...as the church is true....(insert testimony here)....like i'm going to start sinning because of these members....no...i've returned back to my heritage....and my cultural testimony is ever more astonishing as any testimony i've ever heard regarding the LDS experience....i think the church is true for some...for others it doesn't fit us....
...i figured....they can keep their smoggy mountains....their gingerbread nightmares...their plastic pre-package marriages....their polluted lakes....their confusing/contradicting history....(i researched....and also visited most of the pioneer landmarks....try the Beehive house-SLC....interesting...)

.... i was born a Dine' woman...and when i finally prayed with all my might...with all the tears i owned.....on my knees...on mother earth...why...did then...and only then....were my prayers answered?....as the Creator blessed me though i was not in a pew, surrounded by white shirts and skirts....i now have what i so dearly ask for....
.... i am so glad...i left that place which is no longer ours (Natives)....and returned to where the water is pure and clean....and the skies remain clear and absolute....(i have no inkling to go back to church either....go figure)....my spirit says i'm okay just as i am....and i'm living beautifully....

Dear Cycle....i believe there is something in that pocket that clouds the ideals of the people.....
....and avoid the sales and clearance tables....that's where the angry LDS woman go to vent....unless you are looking for a row yourself...lol!