Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Provo: to rent, colleges)

[warandpeaceisme]

Originally Posted by carlymac

Cycle, no one has excused any discrimination you are feeling. We just realize everyone perceives their situation differently. Aussie American seems to have had a very positive experience in her Utah Valley neighborhood. I've searched out other forums and haven't come across even one person complaining as much as you have. So I'm assuming either you had very bad luck in choosing a neighborhood or you are not as positive or easy-going and friendly person as you say (think) you are. Your credibility has been an issue from the beginning. We haven't heard back from you about any follow-up efforts you have made since posting this thread a month or so ago to DO the things people need to do to make friends- invite people over, go to some LDS function, read and study up on the predominant religion to try to understand it. You don't have to become a Mormon. No one expects that of you. etc. So your sincerity in wanting to have friends also comes into question. All we ever hear is complaints from you. If you have decided it truely is your neighbors' fault that you have no friends, then there is no point in you even responding anymore. EVERYONE except for a few have expressed their concern for you and your situation, but you continue to express your opinion that it's discrimination by Mormons, pure and simple and seem to refuse any other explanations. Again, you've proven yourself to be stubborn about anyone trying to make suggestions that might help. You didn't want help from the very beginning. You only wanted to complain. And "warn" others to avoid Utah Valley. Enough others (non-Mormons) have come come on hear to prove your theory about Mormons not completely true but we never see you responding to them in any way, unless it's to whine at them for not living your life.

We're sorry for you. But after dragging this thing through the muck for the last month, it's looking hopeless that you have any intentions of trying to be happy in Utah. Your happiness is what YOU make of it. I'm sure this is a situation you can overcome. I'm positive you could make friends- real friends in your neighborhood if you really wanted to. But I get the feeling you relish the negative attention you get more than the idea of being accepted. If I'm wrong, prove it by doing something other than complaining.

This has gotten so old. And sad.

....well....Cycle did say this thread was for her to get it out....so...she is...wish i thought of it first...when i was in misery there....i believe it is healthy for her to write as it is happening....
...as for the friends...i studied my LDS acquaintances when i was there....trying to understand them (i went through a spell thinking it was me)....they are very wrapped up within their own lives....it's a real aspect that seems un-godly....best as i can describe it...
....i did however make some real good friends who turned out not to be LDS...they were quite lovely to talk to.....i tried dearly not to make it an LDS thing....but a regional thing....but come on!....religion is in every part of everything there....the first questions are always...."are you a member?"....
p.s....i've actally experimented with it....i tried the NO....and got shunned...and i did the YES and had it easier....made me sick ....then i began to grow insensitive to it all....

...so forget trying....just find the cracks to live in....until you move....there are other mormons communities that are nicer....but not much in the Valley.....

[NorthWord]

O.K., I managed to make it through the first 14 pages of this thread.
Yay me. I honestly don't know what to make of what I've read.

My wife and I are planning a move to SLC within the next couple of months. We have a toddler. We are active people in our community, though not church members. I like to think that we are good neighbors.

We have lived in Interior Alaska for some time, and are originally from the midwest.
I can handle being snubbed, but I don't want my wife and son to feel excluded.
I don't want to shop for a house based solely on the religious leanings of the neighborhood, so help me out.

Cliff Notes anyone..?

[Lmejh]

Originally Posted by NorthWord

O.K., I managed to make it through the first 14 pages of this thread.
Yay me. I honestly don't know what to make of what I've read.

My wife and I are planning a move to SLC within the next couple of months. We have a toddler. We are active people in our community, though not church members. I like to think that we are good neighbors.

We have lived in Interior Alaska for some time, and are originally from the midwest.
I can handle being snubbed, but I don't want my wife and son to feel excluded.
I don't want to shop for a house based solely on the religious leanings of the neighborhood, so help me out.

Cliff Notes anyone..?

This thread isn't about Salt Lake City, but Provo. Two more-or-less distinct regions. If you're researching Salt Lake City then this thread isn't all that applicable

[NorthWord]

It is applicable when you are speaking of the residents.
Forty miles isn't far, and if a particular behavior is accepted in one neighborhood, it can be expected to be present in other neighborhoods nearby.

Unless you're telling me that segregation exists, and there's a tangible line drawn across the valley. Is that the case?

I don't desire to "ruin" the peace of a community any more than I would want to be excluded from community activities.

I have received some helpful PMs, so that makes a good start.

[Lmejh]

Originally Posted by NorthWord

It is applicable when you are speaking of the residents.
Forty miles isn't far, and if a particular behavior is accepted in one neighborhood, it can be expected to be present in other neighborhoods nearby.

Unless you're telling me that segregation exists, and there's a tangible line drawn across the valley. Is that the case?

I don't desire to "ruin" the peace of a community any more than I would want to be excluded from community activities.

I have received some helpful PMs, so that makes a good start.

It's just that it seems as if Utah County (Provo and its suburbs) seems to be a bit more excluding than Salt Lake County (Salt Lake City and its suburbs) is, if it is at all. They are two separate cities, two separate valleys, with two separate, distinct universities (at least the two most prominent). I think it's perfectly valid that there can be such a difference between these two counties as one person in Draper can be considered a part of Salt Lake and one in Alpine can be considered a part of Provo even if Draper and Alpine are closer together (if that makes any sense). Anyway, I suppose this whole business not that simple to explain...

[markg91359]

Northword:

I hate to indict a whole area. However, the reality is that even many of us who are LDS feel that the communities in Utah Valley are extreme and over-the-top. Perhaps, its the influence of BYU? I can't come up with a better reason.

One example I like to give to explain the difference is the presidential vote that took place in Utah vs. Salt Lake Counties in 2008. Salt Lake County voted 51% to 49% for Obama as President--very much in line with the rest of the nation. Utah County voted 71% McCain and 29% Obama. Clearly, a very conservative area. And, clearly out of touch with the American mainstream. This is just politics, but politics does, in effect, reflect a set of social norms.

Living in the Salt Lake Valley or even north of there is going to be considerably more pleasant for a non-LDS family. That's just the reality. I'll submit that if you move to the Salt Lake area you are not going to have any serious issues with your family fitting in. There maybe individual neighborhoods in some locations that could be a problem, but these would be quite rare.

[NorthWord]

Thanks for the responses.
I'm of the mind that the Salt Lake area is YOUR town (as in LDS). You settled it, you irrigated it, farmed it and grew it. I accept that I would be moving in as an outsider, and unlike some (who appear here on occasion) I'm not so worried about getting my feelings hurt.

My family would like to avoid exclusion, but I also don't want to upset the harmony of a neighborhood by moving my non-LDS family into it. I realize that Mormons don't have "turf" in the gang sense, but there is some measure of community unity (!) that deserves to be preserved.

I wouldn't like it if some left coast liberal moved into this neighborhood and started feeding my kid Tofu-dogs and taking him to PETA rallies, and I expect that Mormon parents would like to keep their children away from some of the things that I might find normal.

I'm not one of those who would demand a society to change just to accomodate my own beliefs. We don't take well to those folks up here either.

[cinnabon]

Originally Posted by markg91359

Northword:

I hate to indict a whole area. However, the reality is that even many of us who are LDS feel that the communities in Utah Valley are extreme and over-the-top. Perhaps, its the influence of BYU? I can't come up with a better reason.

One example I like to give to explain the difference is the presidential vote that took place in Utah vs. Salt Lake Counties in 2008. Salt Lake County voted 51% to 49% for Obama as President--very much in line with the rest of the nation. Utah County voted 71% McCain and 29% Obama. Clearly, a very conservative area. And, clearly out of touch with the American mainstream. This is just politics, but politics does, in effect, reflect a set of social norms.

Living in the Salt Lake Valley or even north of there is going to be considerably more pleasant for a non-LDS family. That's just the reality. I'll submit that if you move to the Salt Lake area you are not going to have any serious issues with your family fitting in. There maybe individual neighborhoods in some locations that could be a problem, but these would be quite rare.

Very well said, I 100% agree.

Originally Posted by NorthWord

I'm of the mind that the Salt Lake area is YOUR town (as in LDS). You settled it, you irrigated it, farmed it and grew it. I accept that I would be moving in as an outsider, and unlike some (who appear here on occasion) I'm not so worried about getting my feelings hurt.

I've been here 7 months (from the other end of the country), am non religious, and it's just as much mine as it is anyone else's. There is no need to have the attitude that you are intruding on "their" territory. I am not trying to shape anyone else to be like me, and I expect no one else to do it to me. I have not expereinced exclusion in any way since I have been here (granted, I have no kids).

You really don't have to worry too much in SL county - yes it really is a different world here from the rest of the state, and it's getting more diverse all the time.

[Sugarhouse Buddhist]

Hi NorthWord,

As a recent transplant to Utah, I have to say there is a world of difference between the culture of the neighborhood where I live (Sugarhouse, in SLC) and where I was working in American Fork, Utah County. The Mormons I met from "Happy Valley" were very nice, and very fanatical. My definition of fanatical being that you believe that Church and its elders have an exclusive lock on the word of God, and that your outlook is that everything should be the way it is because that is God's will.

In Sugarhouse I enjoy a lively community of artists and buddhists like myself. It is an ethnically diverse neighborhood and I feel quite at home here. Commuting south to American Fork every day, and driving through the narrow divide at Thanksgiving Point, was like traveling to another planet.

I am now considering the possibility of moving to Utah county in order to take a job further south in Provo. It's scary. I'd like to think that Alpine (just south of the Point) would be more diverse. A previous comment indicates that is not so. But what to do? I've been laid off and I need a job.

Any buddhists out there in Utah County? If so, I'd like to hear from you.

[Sugarhouse Buddhist]

PS NorthWord -- One of my former coworkers humorously referred to Salt Lake City as a blue dot in a red state. It's true. Within that area, I believe Sugarhouse, and the nearby University areas, are the most progressive. I suspect the downtown gay neighborhoods are more progressive, too. My landlady is ex-LDS and quite outspoken, but not generally confrontational to LDSers. She has a great sense of humor and a good sense of when you can get through to people, and how. Otherwise, she just leaves it alone. I think that is a good idea.

In my art class, nobody ever talks about religion, politics or the Mormon church. It's just art, family-style. Everyone gets along and opinions are out in the open. I'll post if I hear differently.

So, to sum up, yes the culture is highly localized, to SL County generally, and to neighborhoods in particular. If you have ever lived in, say, the Boston area, you will know exactly what I mean.