i need to clarify something right up front so that it doesn't get lost in the verbal tsunami that is to follow:
in now way am i claiming that since nonmormons are sensitive to the topic of religious ostracism, then they see it where it doesn't exist, and this then means that it doesn't exist period.
i thought that i had made it quite clear that this was not an issue in my head; i have seen mormons knowingly ostracize and snub individuals based merely off of their (perceived) religion.
now, i want to also clarify that this is not a utah phenomenon; you mention that this doesn't happen in others states, that religion doesn't enter into conversation in other states.
this is in direct opposition to my own (and apparently southernbelleinutah's) experience in other states and even other countries.
utah might seem like it is an alien planet, but it is actually pretty darn similar in social nature to the rest of the world because people all over the world have the same social tendancies. more on that later.
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Originally Posted by Alene
I can assure you that isn't the case.
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my point wasn't to tell you that this is what is happening in your case; i can't judge that in any regard because i don't know you. my point was just that my anecdotal experience differs from yours. therefore, it is what happens in some situations, but not all, and it would be logically fallacious to try to presume that this is specifically what happened in your case or some other case that i was just hearing about second hand on the internet.
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I am not offended when someone asks me about my religion, I have just noticed it happens in Utah more than in other places.
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more, yes; i'd agree with that. but this isn't a utah monopoly either. i have lived in utah, virginia, argentina, california, georgia, florida, north carolina, and iraq, and i have *always* found people that were more than happy to talk about religion. always.
it is a fact of life that some people live by the "two things we don't ever talk about
: religion and politics" rule, and that there are some people that never follow that rule. then you have all of the in-betweens, the ones that won't mind talking about it with some people, but not with others, or that will and want to, but feel nervous doing it, etc...
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People care what religion you are. I am absolutely not the only one to notice this - as evidenced by this thread.
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i didn't claim that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't happen here more than elsewhere. i did claim that there isn't an actual element of "caring" as often as some people think it is there. more on that below.
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The last part of your sentence is key - "except in a purely "getting to know you" manner." Regardless of what manner it is meant in, either way it boils down to people caring what religion you are.
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true. but you have to admit that there is a difference between someone saying, "you want to come over on sunday––oh wait, are you going to be at church?" and someone saying, "die, baptists, die!!!"
one of them is not inherently offensive, though some people still take offense to it. the other is blatantly offensive, and most people recognize it as such.
there is a gray area in between, i admit. but what that comes down to, in my experience is intent, and i have come to the conclusion that i need to give people the benefit of the doubt in gray areas, because for all of my knowledge of pscyhology and people, i still cannot judge gray area intent without becoming accusatory.
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By "caring" I mean desirous to know what religion you affiliate yourself with.
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i state again that there is nothing inherently wrong with that. if there is evil intent behind it (ostracism, insults, etc), then it is wrong. but if it is just a question meant to get to know someone, or to understand what this person is going to participate in with you, it is simply a part of the healthy socialexperience.
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Not necessarily because you dislike anyone outside of your religion or that you intend to treat them differently. But it is human nature to need to put people in a box. In Utah we like to box people by religion, in other states it is something else (education, what neighborhood you live in, what sports team you like).
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those things are also used to box people into cliques in utah, and religion is also used to box people elsewhere. i promise you, even in liberal california, religion matters.
there are degrees of prevalence in different areas. but they all exist everywhere i have ever been.
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In other states religion is not a topic of conversation that comes up right away. In Utah it is.
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every time i was transferred to a new unit in the marine corps, as soon as the guys learned that i was religious, i would answer questions about mormon doctrine, my views on philosophy, and world ethics multiple times a day. people that i had no other interaction with would sit down and join me for hours-long conversations about religion and related issues. officers and staff noncomms would condescend to shoot the breeze with me in discussions about faith or the lack thereof (i knew quite a few atheists and agnostics in the military).
point is, i found people *very* interested in talking about religion, and very willing to have respectful, nonhostile dialogues with people of others faiths or their own.
these guys are from all walks of life from all over america and even other countries.
i have noticed this within the civilian world as well, but it is usually
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You don't notice this as much when you are part of the predominant religion.
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if you are refering specifically to me instead of people in general, i doubt it. this is the same kind of logical fallacy that i would have made were i to have decided right off the bat that you were sensitive to religious discussion and therefore see it where it doesn't exist.
it is *probable* that those of a predominant religion won't notice that their topics of conversation are not universally understood or appreciated. it is not a scientific law.
again, i became pretty aware of this in high school. it has taken me years to get to the level of comprehension that i have now, and i certainly have far to go. but i can promise you that i understand and notice how often religion comes up in topics in utah and other areas.
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It isn't rude to shift someone to a mental box - everyone does it. What is rude is to act on that mental shift and treat someone differently.
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that was primarily what i was talking about.
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Is it rude to decide not to bring up Family Night when you find someone isn't mormon? No. Is it rude to avoid the topic of the Prophet? No. Is it treating someone differently than you might treat someone that is mormon? Yes. And sometimes that is the only difference. But sometimes it means being excluded or seen as a potential convert and suddenly the conversation becomes a lesson - and that is definitely rude.
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agreed.
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I think that you are absolutely right, much of the problem - on either side - is perception. If you become sensitive to people being rude you will notice people being rude much more often than you might otherwise. But does that mean that there isn't a problem or that you are creating the issue in your own mind?
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this is what i wanted to clarify up top; my theory doesn't rely on the idea that there isn't a problem, that nonmormons are chasing shadows and seeing offense where none exists.
it relies on the idea that both parties make those kinds of assumptions, which i feel is pretty accurate. it relies on the idea that most of the time, social interactions are innocent and devoid of malignancy, but that it is still possible to read it in where it didn't exist before. i have seen this on both sides, including the mormons assuming that the new neighbor is unfriendly or rude, when really the new guy only wants to be respected in whatever religious system he has adopted.
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I think it is very admirable that you wouldn't even ask the religion of the person that you were dating right away, but I can tell you that you are in the minority on that one.
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minority, yes. but even 49% can be a minority. i honestly have no clue as to exact numbers, and i don't really think it matters, because this is less of a mormon issue anyway. but i also know a good number of mormons that are in a similar situation as far as dating goes, especially dating for fun as opposed to dating for potential marriage.
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Most members want to know the religion of the person they are with right away because it is an inherent part of the LDS religion: without knowing their religion you don't know if you can ever become serious about this person, you don't know if they will share your values about sex, smoking, coffee, swearing, Sundays, etc. In fact, it would nearly impossible not to infer an individuals religion quite quickly simply based on how they treat those things. And just to clarify, I am talking about active members.
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agreed. realize that this is not even remotely a mormon issue, though. i've read books about psychology and marital counseling that discuss finding someone of your own religion, culture, and nationality. that the mormons also do this does seem to offend some people, but we hardly invented it or ran wild with it.
i think some people take offense because they assume that it must mean that they are inferior. any mormons that really think nonmormons are inferior have missed the boat, and are living their own narcissistic fantasy rather than the doctrine of the church.
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You are probably right. Utah is definitely divided into Mormon and Non-Mormon and it is only exacerbated by the fact that neither side wants to communicate. I think talking about it is the best thing we can do. It can only help.
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i heartily agree with this. talking about religion can actually be cathartic; many people have stuff that they want to get off of their chest, whether it is a rant, a horror story, or even a guilt trip.
what i really find interesting is that some people claim to be uncomfortable talking about religion, but then seem eager to bring it up when they are in the right conditions (with someone they trust, in a group of like-minded individuals, or even just on the anonymous internet––which is interesting because the internet is one of the most hostile place to talk about religion).
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Patting myself on the back
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i'd pat you on the back too, but then i'd probably get slapped with a restraining order or something, and then the
we-hate-gentiles and
we-hate-mormons committees would cry out for blood, because i must have forgotten that mormons and those of other faiths can't agree on anything or get along.
ok, bad sarcasm...
anyway, i appreciate your input. like i said earlier, i think you and i agree on probably 96% of the details of these situations.
aaron out.
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Your post has a lot of good points.
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