Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Ogden: cliquey, transfer)

[carlymac]

Well, ahem. I have read and re-read everything you have written. You have decided I am against you it seems. I'm not. I don't feel I have attacked you. I'm not condemning you. I'm simply trying to point out another perspective to help you have a better experience in Utah. You may have missed all the times I have said things like, "I'm embarrassed for anyone of my same faith who treats others unfairly. I'm tempted to take this to top officials of the church (my mother-in-law is good friends with one of them) to address in General Conference. If LDS people are ganging up on those not of our faith, that is unacceptable."

For your information, while you were writing this last scathing post to me, I was forwarding your original post to my mother-in-law as well as many other friends (some of whom live in Utah Valley) and asking them if this kind of thing is really going on and what can we do to be more open and welcoming. It horrifies me that anyone would have the kind of experience you are having. I'm simply trying to help you see that perhaps your opinion actually has been tainted by what people on this board say about Mormons.I have actually felt attacked by you in your last post. Why is it that you haven't responded negatively to anything non-LDS folks have said to disagree with you or argue back when they have tried to point out ways to make your life better. Only me. I'm being as honest and as fair as I can be. There are ALWAYS two sides to the story and if you have no intention of even listening to another viewpoint, then you are being just as close minded as the people you are blaming.

I'm sorry you have been so offended by what I have had to say. I agree the posts about smoking were blunt- but that is the medical person in me coming out. As well as the one who is sensitive to smell. It has far less to do with my religion than you would think. I have a neighbor down the street who used to smoke (doesn't go to any church by the way) and she would tell you the same thing without missing a beat.

I truely only hope the best for you. Wouldn't you agree that sometimes the best comes from adjusting your own attitude a little. Do you really think the problem would get any better if I agreed 100% with you that UTAH VALLEY Mormons are hateful and mean. That would only add fuel to your fire and would help you build a stonger wall against them. I'm only suggesting things that might help you understand the people you live among. And that might be helpful as well for any other people who are not members of the Mormon faith who find themselves living in Utah Valley.

If you only want people to agree with you I don't think a public forum is the place to find/expect that.

I hope you can calm down yourself and try to get a grip on what I've been trying to say the whole time. I AM just trying to be helpful believe it or not. Have a good day Cycle.

[carlymac]

Cycle- Here are some exerpts from my e-mails to my friends and family. I swear to you I didn't edit them or alter them in anyway. This is what I was writing as you were posting to me the last time.

"I wanted to forward this along to you to get your opinion. I'd be grateful if you would send it on to Barbara so she can show Dave. I wonder if this kind of thing is ever discussed among the brethren. I know there is a lot of Mormon bashing going on these days, but this kind of thing only adds fuel to the fire. Is there a legitimate reason for people to dislike Mormons? Maybe so. Are LDS people really this mean and exclusive? If so, what can we do about it to change these perceptions? "

And at the bottom of your post I put this, "So what do you think? It makes my heart sink."

And to clarify to you, it does make my heart sink that people are ever treated as outsiders.


And to my friends and other family members, " I recently ran across this experience on the internet that someone has had in Utah County, Saratoga Springs I think. It was on a Utah message board. I wanted to get your take on it and find out if this kind of thing is really going on. It's really hard to believe but I suppose it could be true. It makes me so sad that we as LDS people are more and more looked at as exclusive and snooty. If so, what can we do about it and how can we bridge the gaps? Anyone want to take the time to discuss this? I shouldn't care since I no longer live in Utah nor have I ever lived in Utah County, but I do care because I still feel Utah is my home and I'm concerned. I'm also sending this to some of my MN friends who are either originally from Utah or have lived there."

And at the bottom of your post that I had copied and pasted I wrote, "If any of you are married to a bishop or leader in the church, could you forward it on to them and just see what thoughts they have about it? "

I hope this make you feel better. There is a Mormon who cares and hopes things get better for you. This is one small step. But it requires both sides working together to make a difference.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by Cycle

Carlymac,
I did not ask for excuses, rationalizations or justifications for why my neighbors behave the way they do, but thank you for making my point again. And, Yes I can blame them (Utah Mormons) for being clannish given their history (your statement). Instead of condemning others because they are not accepted by the Utah Mormons, the Christian thing to do would be to bring this to the attention of the Elders of the Church and ask them to intercede on behalf of the people who are being treated like this and to ask their Wards to open their hearts and minds to others. Just something to think about, if you would like to have an intelligent conversation about possible solutions to this ongoing problem then remove the emotion and personal attacks from your posts because they are sounding very defensive and downright rude (which by the way is the same behavior I suffer every day at the hands of my UTAH VALLEY MORMON neighbors not all MORMONS). I have stated my position on the religion as a whole and the difference between UTAH VALLEY MORMONS and any others that I have met. Please re-read all my other posts before you attack me again.
Cycle

not to beat a dead horse, but you are still generalizing. generalizing, even if it is a smaller group generalization, shows a lack of understanding, or willingness to understand.

i debated whether to bring this up-again-or not, but i feel it is important for the quiet readers out there to note.

i am sorry that you have had a bad experience with mormons, but that doesn't give you leave to generalize, even if it is about those utah valley mormons.

i recently moved to utah valley, and have found it irritating how many people wanted to get to know me and stuff. when we first bought the house, no one knew us. i would come work on the house in the evenings, landscaping out in the yard without a shirt on, still scruffy (enjoying the post-military facial hair freedoms), loud-mouthed, cursing too much (yeah, i'm not proud of it, but i have a dirty mouth).

i can promise that none of my neighbors knew i was mormon (i'd wager that most thought that i wasn't). they were still just as nice to me. i just wanted to work on the house and go to bed, but they would always come over and chat and ask about the house.

in fact, the only neighbors that weren't nice (and still aren't) are the nonmormons that live behind me (i have other nonmormon neighbors that are nice though). i know not to make sweeping judgments about utah valley nonmormons though, and i realize that they are not represented by my neighbors to the rear.

again, i'm not dubious of your apparently stupid neighbors; i fully believe that you have dealt with ignorant jerks.

my point is the same as it has always been: you can't successfully judge an entire community by your personal experiences and biases. and even more than that, you can't expect to tell people your highly charged, controversial views, without getting some in kind. irrational.

aaron out.

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by carlymac

Why is it that you haven't responded negatively to anything non-LDS folks have said to disagree with you or argue back when they have tried to point out ways to make your life better. Only me.

Oh, rest assured, she has. I am non LDS and she has bit my head off several times when I have disagreed with her.

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by stycotl

i would come work on the house in the evenings, landscaping out in the yard without a shirt on, still scruffy (enjoying the post-military facial hair freedoms), loud-mouthed, cursing too much (yeah, i'm not proud of it, but i have a dirty mouth).

You rebel you....

[carlymac]

Ok. I won't take it so personally then.

[carlymac]

Stycotl- Do you cuss in Spanish? Might be a good idea.

[Cycle]

carlymac
Thank you for taking some positive action on this. FYI we live in the Stillwater Addition, if you know of anyone you can forward this to, in that ward who might be open and receptive, it would be greatly appreciated. If you re-read my posts, then hopefully you will understand when I say that I have to care about someone's opinion for it to offend me, and that works both ways, you do not know me and should not care or allow me to control your emotions with my opinion...There is no cause for inflamatory remarks, you have your opinion and I have mine, and that is ok, please don't get mad, angry, rude or sarcastic with me it serves no purpose and has absolutely no impact on me or my opinion. I am very straightforward, plain spoken and honest please don't take it for anything other than that.
Respectfully,
Cycle

[Cycle]

Kaytidid,
I have to care about someone's opinion for it to offend me, and that works both ways, you do not know me and should not care or allow me to control your emotions with my opinion...There is no cause for inflamatory remarks, you have your opinion and I have mine, and that is ok, please don't get mad, angry, rude or sarcastic with me it serves no purpose and has absolutely no impact on me or my opinion. I am very straightforward, plain spoken and honest please don't take it for anything other than that.
Respectfully,
Cycle

[Cycle]

stycotl,
God Bless you for keeping on...you have a very good point and I sincerely hope that there are many people of all religions, backgrounds and communities who are looking at their own actions and asking themselves if they are doing all they could to be kind, courteous, caring and civil to those who don't look, think and act the same as they do...How boring would the world be without diversity and opposing points of view.
Cycle