Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Ogden: ski resorts, real estate)

[kaytidid]

Sorry Cycle, I don't see where I ever did give you ANY inflammatory remarks. I was responding to Carlymac's post, not yours. At the very beginning of your thread I simply stated that I was very sorry that you had the encounters that you had and that I had never been in that position. I was only trying to tell you that even though you may have come across some rude people (who happened to be LDS), not everyone in the state is equally like that. You responded with a "thanks, but please." Sounds awfully sarcastic in its own right. I am sorry you feel humiliated because your children notice that the neighbors don't wave back. Why? I thought other peoples opinions don't offend you? You don't control my emotions whatsoever, however when I see blame being cast that is unfair to the majority of people, then I tend to get upset. Fair is fair.
All I ever tried to do from the beginning was let you know that there ARE friendly people in Utah. You took offense from the getgo saying that it IS a mormon thing. It isn't a mormon thing, it is a rude human thing.

Originally Posted by Cycle

Kaytidid,
I have to care about someone's opinion for it to offend me, and that works both ways, you do not know me and should not care or allow me to control your emotions with my opinion...There is no cause for inflamatory remarks, you have your opinion and I have mine, and that is ok, please don't get mad, angry, rude or sarcastic with me it serves no purpose and has absolutely no impact on me or my opinion. I am very straightforward, plain spoken and honest please don't take it for anything other than that.
Respectfully,
Cycle

[Cycle]

kaytidid,
Again, there is no need for angry emotional responses and attempts to pick apart what I have gone through, it is what it is. Please accept the fact that "it is a rude human thing" is your opinion, I do not agree and that is ok, we are allowed to have different opinions that is what life in America is about. I have looked at this issue from both sides (I have lived it and continue to live it every day for the last eight months going into the ninth) and I keep coming back to the same conclusion especially when I have two neighbors who are LDS and not from here telling me that the Mormons in this neighborhood do not accept outsiders, even them...You can keep trying to pick a fight with me but I will not engage, your opinion is directly related to your experiences and I am glad that you have had wonderful experiences in Utah...my opinion is directly related to my experiences and no matter how hard you try you cannot change what has already happened, my perception of what has happened or my kids perception of how they have been treated by our Mormon neighbors. What you can do is allow people to speak freely about their experiences so that some open dialogue might open some eyes and maybe this exclusionary behavior (whether intentional or not) can be stopped and tolerance, kindness and consideration can be learned.
Respectfully,
Cycle

[kaytidid]

I was never trying to pick a fight with you. Ever. Nor have I never allowed anyone to not speak freely. Just as you see your right to post your side of the story, I have done the same. Never once saying you were making it up. Never saying once that they were not treating you as you should be treated. The only thing I ever did was say that I had never had the same experience.

How did I not "allow" anyone to say what has happened to them? That question is NOT meant to be snarky, as I am truly curious. If it is just because I engaged in a debate with you, I don't feel that I have taken away any personal freedoms by not "allowing" anyone to speak. I am also trying to understand why you think all my responses to you have been emotional, angry and attempts to pick apart your verbiage. All I have ever done is counter your circumstances with those of my own. Just because they were not the same does not mean that I am attacking you.

I totally agree that tolerance, kindness and consideration needs to be learned. Not just in Utah, but globally.

If I say I am sorry that your neighbors treated you like that, sorry isn't what you want. If I say that I haven't had that experience, it is because I don't live around Utah Valley Mormons. I can't tell you how to fix it, it hasn't happened to me. I can't argue my point that there are many neighborhoods that you wouldn't encounter that, because then you feel like I am attacking you.

What exactly do I need to say to make you realize I was never attacking *you* in the first place? I was merely defending my own point of view...as were you.

[Cycle]

kaytidid,
You seem to be taking this very personally and I do not understand why. A debate can exist only when two people engage in an arguement with opposing points of view, yes we have opposing points of view but I refuse to argue with you, I am not interested in a debate...I am not interested in hearing excuses or rationalizations for the way I am being treated and I absolutely refuse to explain myself, my thoughts, my feelings or my perceptions...I want to let people know it is happening and that it exists and hopefully this is the beginning of a change that needs to occur. As I stated in my original post I would like to be allowed to share my experiences...that's all! I did not ask for your opinion or input, rationalizations, excuses or justifications....It just is what it is and maybe getting it out in a public forum can help to change what is going on, not just to me but to many others.
Cycle

[carlymac]

Cycle-
I'm not going to go so far as to contact anyone in Saratoga Springs to tell them about your situation. But it might be really enlightening for you to do that yourself. Just use that phonebook again and call any stake president. I'm sure they'd hear you out. It would be good for folks on both sides of this problem to get a dialogue going.

Or you could write a letter to the editor in the local newpaper but that would leave you open to more of the negative feedback you don't seem to want.

Good luck

[carlymac]

One more thing, we all appreciate what you're gong through. BUT we're attempting to do some damage control too. You expected to just put your experience out there but you began with a pretty general warning to anyone thinking of moving to Utah Valley. You said yourself that your experience was YOUR experience. I would think any intelligent person would realize that they might not have the same experience you have had- even in Utah Valley. But I see people coming on here expressing their fears about moving to Utah because of what they have heard.

I think that's why you've gotten so much flak from some of us. We're trying to preserve and encourage what's good about Utah rather than scaring people out of their wits before they even get here. At the same time that you are doing a good thing by bringing a problem to light that should be worked on, you are also doing a whole people (over 13 million) a big disservice by saying it's a "Mormon thing". And those who disagree with you are going to cry foul.

Hopefully anyone soon to move to Utah Valley will see this for what it's worth. Hopefully they will navigate the Newbie-to-the-Neighborhood phase with aplomb as they recognize they are moving into a very homogenous area.

[osugirl2]

I just found out I'm getting transferred to Hill AFB at the end of summer. I had thought/hoped I would get Peterson in Colorado Springs, so I've had to change gears quite quickly and start researching Utah rather than Colorado. My significant other and our son will be coming with me. I've heard that the suburbs are more difficult to live in for non-LDS people than in the city itself, however we really need to find a place in between SLC and Ogden because he will probably have to find work in SLC and I will be driving to Ogden. Any suggestions of where to live or where not to live for that matter? My best friend has been a Mormon for over five years and she has several in-laws that reside in Utah, so just from listening to her I've learned quite a bit about Mormon culture, however even though she thinks it won't be a big deal that I'm non LDS, it seems like most of the posts and forums under Utah end up in some sort of LDS vs. non-LDS conversation which tells me that it's a subject that occupies a lot of people's minds around there. We love the outdoors and are very social people, but I mostly worry about my little boy (even though he's only two now....), because I would hate for him to experience being an outcast just because mom had to move for her job....lol Any thoughts or sugestions would be greatly appreciated!

[kaytidid]

I would say Layton would be a good idea, but I have heard that the further east you go in Layton, it can be a bit cliquey. I don't know though. My brother lived in Layton for a few years and he didn't experience that and loved living there. He did live in West Layton though. Clearfield is also a thought. Anyplace right around the base has a bit more diversity. I wouldn't worry about your son being an outcast. Military kids are usually very open and accepting, and if he is, others will be too.
Could I ask what your SO does?

Welcome to Utah!

[osugirl2]

He is in the restaurant industry and has full service and fine dining experience. He has been in management for the past 10 months or so, so he'd like to find a management position with a nice full service restaurant. We are hoping to get a house hunting trip beforehand so that he can get his resume out there, because he'd like as little down time as possible once we get there.

[osugirl2]

and thank you for the welcome! I have to say I"m a bit nervous. I was born and raised in Oklahoma, and I've never lived anywhere but here. Being my first move, I have no idea what to expect, plus SO and I will be consolidating households for the first time as well, so it should prove to be interesting....lol That said, I'm really excited at the same time, and I'm looking forward to becoming a good enough skier to not slide down the mountain (that's what happened the first and only time I went skiing as a teenager)