Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Tooele: fit in, skateboarding)

[Cycle]

I wanted to create a thread where people felt like they could post their honest experiences as non-lds members living in Utah Valley. I just ask that they be personal experiences and that anyone sharing their eperiences not be attacked. I have been reading the Utah postings from this message board since before we moved to Utah in May of 08. I often read some very negative opinions about some areas of Utah and the influence/behavior of the LDS population. One thing that always happened was that the people who were being negative were bombarded by people calling them negative and saying that there is nothing wrong with Utah, that it has to be them with the problems…I am asking those people who want to get on here and tell me it is my fault to just leave it alone. People who are considering moving to Utah deserve to know the truth just as I should have been allowed to know the truth.

The truth is, be very careful if you are non-lds about where you move especially if you have children, would like to be a part of a community, would like to have neighbors who speak to you or would like to have your existence acknowledged. My husband and I were given lots of advice before relocating to Utah about moving to Utah Valley, some good and some bad…some of it really bad and our first thoughts were there is no way it could possibly be that bad…well it was and still is. I am treated as if I don’t exist, shopping is the worst, people are outright rude to me, won’t acknowledge me when I say excuse me, won’t apologize for being inconsiderate and are basically very uncivilized to me…And yes I do know that they know I am not LDS because I am a short redhead who is pretty well endowed and I have a hard time finding clothing that fits my waist and hips that isn’t too tight elsewhere…hope that is clear as mud, but walking into the store it is very obvious that I am not LDS, I do not look offensive, but I am not meek and mild mannered wearing two layers of clothing either. And yes, before you ask I do know what LDS women dress like around here, I know the looks I get when I buy my coffee and the rudeness I am treated with once I ask to purchase a pack of cigarettes. It is so pervasive that it is tangible.

Within five minutes of the moving truck arriving, we had five couples show up at our house and wanted to know all about us, the first question they asked was if we are LDS. We stated we were not and left it at that. We stood out in the driveway talking for about an hour and everyone was so nice, but they kept talking repeatedly about church activities. They were all very excited when we told them we had six kids and wanted to get all the kids involved in various activities and groups with the church, we let them know that we appreciated the offer but to give us some time to get established. After the first week when they realized we were Catholics and were going to church in another city, we never received another wave even when we waved at them, nobody would walk to the end of their driveway when we were on evening walks to chat with us, they turn their backs and go into their houses, when families approach us walking the other direction they cross the street. This has happened on so many occasions, not just once so please do not tell me I am being sensitive. We have gone to the park with the kids and had a full park and every single time, within five minutes of our arrival everyone leaves, not just some but all…None of the children in the neighborhood will play with ours, NONE…and my kids are the most outgoing social children in the world. My twelve year old son is so outgoing that when we took a trip to California two months ago we went to the beach and within five minutes he had made a friend and they played together for the next three hours, yet after living in this community for almost eight months he has not made a single friend in our neighborhood...don't believe for a second that there aren't any kids his age because there are kids everywhere, the bus stops are packed in the mornings.

School is no different, my twelve year old has two friends, neither of which is LDS, and they both live a couple of miles away. He had a birthday party that he attended for a friend in his class and over 30 of his classmates showed up, my sons birthday party was three weeks later and after inviting all 36 of his classmates with RSVP’s and invitations that were exactly the same as the other kids (I used his format because I wanted it to be acceptable for this region as in Kansas we would have used completely different ones) the day of the party NOT ONE SINGLE CHILD came…NOT ONE, not a single phone call giving regrets, nothing at all no response, no apologies for not showing up everyone just pretended like it never happened...never in my life have I encountered such uncivilized behavior. It completely broke my sons heart and I was devastated for him. This 12 year old child told me that everyone went to Victors party because he is Mormon and they all go to the same church, thats why they all went to his party, he is a very forgiving child. Then, for the last month my son has come home upset every day trying to figure out ways to record the ‘other’ boys at lunch because at least 20 boys chase him and his non-lds friend around the playground threatening to beat them up and cussing at them, my son wants to tape it because his teacher won’t believe that these boys are doing this when she isn’t around. Out of 36 kids in my sons class it is only him and the other two boys who are not LDS.

My fifteen year old went three months without anyone of the other teens in our neighborhood talking to him no matter how many times he went out skateboarding, bike riding and walking…he is also very outgoing and has always made friends easily because he is very funny and likes to make people laugh. The first and only contact with teens he has had in our neighborhood is when I received a call out of the blue from a neighbor to tell me that one of our other neighbors had had a premature baby and the wife had to have a C-section. I know what that is like and so I made a dinner for them and me and the kids took it over, after we got there was the first time I realized this neighbor had a son who was sixteen and him and my son hit it off perfectly. His son is LDS but basically goes along to get along. They asked my 15yr old if he wanted to stay and play video games for a little while and he said sure, well when he came home the first thing he told me was that his friends dad had called him upstairs right after I left their house and told him to be nice to my son and to be a good influence because "we are trying to get his family into the church". What a way to start a friendship between two teenaged boys. Eight months later this is still the only teenager in the community that will respond to my sons attempts at making friends.

My little ones are the heartbreakers and these poor little guys just don't understand at all, in Kansas everyone at least acknowledged you when you waved or tried to start conversations, we have a family that lives one house over from us with a vacant field in between. My kids will go out on the trampoline while the other kids are on theirs and they will laugh and play and try to get the other kids to come over and they get ignored every single time, when my kids go to the play area across the street when other kids are out, those other kids go home, we have tried everything we can think of and we won’t give up, but these things that people write about which are so horribly wrong are real…this is not a figment of my imagination I live it every single day and I watch my kids persevere and keep their Christian values. I am very proud of them that they are able every day to not let it affect their own sense of self, in exactly one year our lease will be up and we will move north of the point of the mountain. And yes, it is the LDS issue, my husband works with lds people and he gets along with all of them, but they always joke with him about his bad choice in where we live by saying “I’m LDS and even I wouldn’t live down there, those LDS people in Utah Valley are crazy”. So please don’t disparage me for trying to share my experiences, it is definitely not all LDS people, just the ones in this area. I could go on and on, but the stories all have the same ending, this shunning does exist no matter how many times people try to deny it, I have done everything a Christian should do and will continue to do so but it is definitely a lesson learned in how not to treat others, I just hope that my kids will not grow up hating all mormons just because of this one very negative representation of Mormonism and all it stands for…basically what they have been taught is that if you are not like us then you don’t exist except as an occasional annoyance which we will get rid of eventually. Please Please Please if you are considering moving to Utah, do as much research as possible and if there are a lot of negative comments about a particular place, even with a whole bunch of people attacking them and being defensive, consider the fact that what is being said may be true at least in that one area.

[kaytidid]

I am very sorry for your experiences. I can't say that it never happens, but I can say that I have NEVER had any issues that you have had. That isn't to say that I think you are making them up, I am just saying they have never happened to me. My daughters both have friends that are LDS and some that are not, and are also very social girls. As the odds would have it, I am also a short, well endowed redhead who is Catholic. It is possible that my LDS neighbors ARE giving me the cold shoulder, but I just never notice it. I am quite reserved myself and figure that if they don't wave, neither do I. That being said, my husband is very outgoing and those same neighbors that might not be waving to me chat up a storm with him. It is kind of strange actually. Even though he is the very outgoing person, I am more accepting of differences among people. Yet, because I am not very social, he is the one that everyone will talk with. Hmmm...I digress though.

Again, I am sorry that you have had experiences like that. Maybe we hit it lucky when we moved here and the town you live in does matter. We lived in West Valley for a few years and then bought a house in Tooele County. I have to be honest though. If I would encounter any shunning from someone, I would chalk it up to a rude person, rather than a rude LDS person. KWIM?

I am not LDS, but I get really agitated when people come on this forum to mormon bash. When they come on and tell their story without attacking (such as you did) it is entirely different. Remember when we were kids (and how we say to our kids now...) it isn't WHAT you said, but HOW you said it? Same thing. It isn't that you, or others, are saying how you feel excluded, it is the entire tone of a post that gets some feathers ruffled.

Again, so very sorry for your experiences. It must be the area you are and hopefully you are able to find a more pleasant place for your family to enjoy Utah. I know that those areas are here.

[stycotl]

i agree with kaytidid. it really comes down to the way it is communicated, and the emotion behind it.

when people come to the forums to vent, and can do it in a reasonable way, you'll notice that they don't really take any flak for it. but when they come in here and start making sweeping generalizations, emotional rants, and other logical fallacies, accusing a large group of people of things that they don't even fully understand, then yes, they will hear from everyone else on the board.

i see a lot of problems with the way people come on the board and rant as they do. this applies to every forum topic that i have ever read, not just those bashing mormons, so don't auto-assume some sort of agenda or bias here (not claiming that i'm unbiased, just that this is a bigger issue than mormonism).

these are some of the issues that moderate, cooperative, respectful forumites take offense to (note that the examples are ones that i've actually read):

-sweeping generalizations: my mormon neighbor is a jerk, therefore all mormons must be jerks; democrats are whiny, socialist elitists.

-lack of education on the subject: mormons dig up the dead and baptise them; pitbulls have jaws that lock.

-lashing out emotionally: i hate mormons; i wouldn't mind if all republicans committed suicide.

-baseless accusations: the mormon mafia kills people that refuse to convert; atheists are responsible for the downfall of society.

-purposely ignoring logic or personal experience: ignoring the fact that most mormons are normal people like you and me; ignoring your own first-hand account that most religious people are still reasonable, rational people (not the brainless lemmings that many people need to believe that they are).

-personal insults: no i don't think that mormons are nice people, and since you don't agree with me, you're an ignorant jerk; stupid gun nut!

i could go on. when people come on and make arguments using these strategies, all they do is rile people up. they don't intelligently make their point; they don't convince anyone except for the few that were already convinced of the same thing; they don't cause any changes of opinion.

it does nothing except provide a temporary relief (And by temporary, usually the relief wears off as soon as someone answers the post and reveals the logical holes in the argument).

so, if you can post our expasperations with some sort of rational mindset, realizing that not all mormons hate you, are out to get you, and want to sacrifice your children, then you will get a lot farther in life.

the root of this problem, in my humble opinion, is the inability of some people to separate emotion from logic (lesser factor), and the inability of some people to think positively (greater factor). if you move to utah expecting bad things to happen, they will happen, and that will be all that you notice. if you move to utah expecting normal life, that is what you will find. if you move to utah and expect heaven, that is what you will find.

this doesn't mean that only that type of things will happen to you; but that is what you will notice, remember, and react to. look at the difference between the mindsets of some of those nonmormons that are happy here, and even some of the mormons that aren't happy here. the difference is usually pretty clear-cut.

and last of all, realize that all of us are human. i make mistakes. i occasionally screw up and post one of those logical fallacies that i listed above. i occasionally allow my irrational emotions to rule my perceptions of others. sometimes mormons are jerks. sometimes they are ignorant to the feelings of those around them. sometimes they are purposefully mean. sometimes they are ignorantly mean.

they are human beings. just like you and me (well, i'm a mormon, so of course they are kinda like me...) and everyone else.

aaron out.

[Cycle]

Thank you for your kind response. I do accept the fact that it is just a small area that I live in where I am having these issues, but the fact also exist that there are pockets of this kind of behavior all over Utah Valley, I have met online with many non-lds women who have had the same experiences I have had...have you ever been to Cafemom.com, there is ongoing chat's under non-lds utah valley moms where we are allowed to discuss the things we are subjected to and the positive things we can do to help alleviate the sense of isolation many of us have been enduring do to the fact that we do not fit in with our neighbors.

You stated in your response "It is possible that my LDS neighbors ARE giving me the cold shoulder, but I just never notice it. I am quite reserved myself and figure that if they don't wave, neither do I." I am quite the opposite, I am outgoing and I always wave first, it is humiliating how many times my kids have asked me why our neighbors didn't wave back...It is the constant refusal to acknowledge our existance that is so horrible. If I am outside cleaning my car in the driveway on a Sunday and streams of cars will come into our neighborhood, we live on the main street into the neighborhood, the women in the cars intentionally turn their heads away and the men just look straight on...I guarantee you that there is no way they could miss me or my husband, we are right there. It is the same thing no matter where I go, I can walk towards a woman and in any other civilized place I have lived, when two women are walking towards each other (nothing else going on, no children to distract) I always make eye contact and give a slight smile or some non-verbal form of acknowledgement of existence when you are walking into each others path. Every single time it has happened the women walk by without even looking at me, they look straight ahead or down at the floor and pretend like I don't exist, I see the lines of their garments from behind and I know...But if I am walking towards a woman who has her hair messed up, wearing sweats and a tank top, she immediately glances towards me and sometimes there is a smile, sometimes there is a frown, but she at least realizes that I exist.

I would prefer not to hear that it isn't a LDS thing, because I know it is. My neighbor right next door to me came to me recently and asked me if I was LDS because they had just moved into the neighborhood. I told her that I was not and she said that she was. She asked me how I survived living in the area, whether people actually talked to me, I told her that in all the months I have lived here only two people have talked to me other than on our first day here. She said that she had started going to the church but that the ladies there were refusing to accept her and that she was very depressed because they were making it clear that she didn't belong and that she felt like an outsider. She said that none of the welcomed her and they wouldn't make eye contact with her at all. She is LDS from Hawaii and she felt she was being shunned because she wasn't one of "them", whatever them is, but if a member of the LDS church doesn't feel welcomed or even feels like she is being shunned and doesn't exist in the eyes of all our neighbors then is it so hard to believe that I am receiving the same treatement becasuse I am not one of "them".

Let me reiterate, not all mormons behave this way, it is not an LDS wide behavior, but there are some in the LDS church who are extremists and will make it clear that if you are not one of us then you are beneath us and don't deserve to be treated in a civil manner. These pockets of extremists do exist and I just would like people to be aware it could happen to them, it is cruel and unjust, especially to the children...It is not called being over-sensitive, it is called being treated like dirt just because I do not believe in their religion...It hurts.

All I am asking is for you to allow others to get on here and post their experiences even if it comes across as an attack because I understand completely where their anger and frustration comes from and some people are not eloquent with the written word, but that doesn't mean that their experiences didn't happen...all it means is that they are fed up and want to have their voices heard...Thank you for taking the time to read my post I really appreciate it.

[kaytidid]

You know, there have been times when I have waved first and wasn't given a wave back. Rude, yes, of course it is. I don't care though. I guess that is just a personality difference between you and me. I don't care if they give me the time of day or whatever. I have my own life to live and for the most part, it doesn't include them. Again, I am not a very social person, so while things like that don't bother me (because to many, maybe they thing that *I* am the one that is shunning them. Many times in my life I have been labeled a snob), I can understand that if you are social why that might bother you.

I was not saying it didn't happen to you. The only thing I said when you quoted me was that I didn't notice because I really don't care if they wave back or not. Obviously, it does matter to you. I also said that things like that haven't happened to my kids. As a matter of fact, because of the comments on this board lately regarding how kids are treated, I asked mine the other day if they have EVER felt like outsiders because we are not LDS. They looked at me like I had landed from the planet Jupiter and didn't miss a beat before saying NO. A friend of mine is LDS, but she is not from Utah and told me that even an LDS from someplace else has a hard time fitting in sometimes. So, no, I don't discount when people state that they have been treated like that. I just really don't care if people notice me or not. If they don't want to get to know me, their loss. Those that have taken the time to, will know that I am a very loyal friend and would do anything for you.

I was snubbed in Jr. High. Does that mean that everyone always is? Nope. Does that mean the same group that snubbed me, snubs everyone? Nope. Would I jump down your throat if you told me that you were never snubbed, therefore it couldn't have ever happened to me? No. I would have just taken it for what it is. Just some very rude people.

When people come on and post that they have had experiences like you have, I tell them that I truly am sorry for that. I don't bash them for expressing their frustration. I get upset when people get on the forum just to assume that all LDS are like the rude ones that they have encountered. I have some great neighbors. I also have a couple that I would like to throttle. With the exception of 1, they are all LDS. The reasons I would like to throttle them have nothing to do with whether they are being rude to me or not.

I know you realize that there are extremists in every group you can think of, right?

[lolagranola]

I feel for you, I wouldn't want to live in your neighborhood either.

My experience has been totally different from your's (non, re-located from Ecoast). My family has been welcomed into our neighborhood, we found the people exceedingly helpful and friendly.

My parents moved to SC from NY after I got out of HS. It is a place that lots of people were relocating to, and "everyone" seemed to love it. NOT ME. I was treated so rudely. I couldn't get a job. During the almost 3 yrs I lived there, I was hired by a NYer, an E Indian, and someone from pennsylvania. I had no southern friends. Everyday people told me that they didn't like yankees, everyday people told me to go back to NY, everyday I had people who sounded sweet as pie as they told me they don't associate with my kind. My parents loved it. My brother and sister (who were elementary aged) got along fine.To this day, my mom is still perplexed that I had such an ordeal.

My point is, I can definately relate to someone having a bad experience and being excluded. By My experience in Utah has been amazing, in so many ways, that I am going to keep raising my hand when I hear people saying "oh those Mormons are exclusive".

[carlymac]

Not to discount your pain but I would like to know the other side of the story. Is there another reason aside from religion that your family has been ignored?

OK- going out on a limb here. You mentioned that you bought a pack of cigarettes. I assume you smoke or were they for someone else? I have to admit that I avoid people who smoke simply because they smell so bad. I lived in Utah most of my life and rarely spent much time with heavy smokers. There were a few- a neighbor and a highschool teacher who reeked but it was a smell I never grew accustomed to! So when I moved out of Utah I found myself really sensitive to that smell. And it seemed to be everywhere! The person doesn't even have to be smoking at the time. If they have recently smoked, the smell is in their clothing and eminates from them. I will move over an aisle in the grocery store just to get away from it. The smell really makes me sick to my stomach. And I have found that kids of smokers also have that smell in their clothing. This may not apply to you and your family at all. It's just a guess.

Smoking is no doubt more common in Kansas so if someone happens to smell like cigarettes, it wouldn't be so out of the ordinary. But in Utah, it's probably going offend more people and they may want to avoid the smell/person.

If this isn't you, disregard my observations.

I don't know if this applies to you and your family

[Cycle]

To all who have responded to this post,

This is exactly what I was talking about in my original post, I was asking for the respect to allow me and others to post about our experiences without being picked apart, told that it is something I did that makes people react to me, told that it has nothing to do with the predominant religion, or told that I'm sorry it happend to you but it didn't happen to me...That's not what this post was about, it isn't about giving you the chance to tell me I am wrong or confused.

I have six kids, have been a military brat/spouse my entire life and have lived in too many communities to count including overseas and all across the US. I have a bachelors degree and am working on my Master's, I was a police officer for many years working a beat, I know a lot about non-verbal cues, patterns of behavior, prejudice and discrimination...I am not claiming to be an expert or a psychologist, I just would like you to understand I am not some sensitive ninny out here whinning aobut people being mean to me. I could care less if it were some people treating me and my kids like this, but it isn't some people, it is everyone!!! And everyone around us happens to go to the local ward for church every Sunday, that is the only noticeable difference between my family and theirs, all outward appearances are exactly the same.

As far as smoking, not once have any of these people gotten close enough for them to smell me and I don't stand outside and advertise that I smoke on occasion. I am not looking for you to psychoanalyze me, give me possible explanations, reationalizations, justifications...I just want a chance to share my story with others who may be experiencing the same things and let them know they are not alone and to warn others this might happen to them and to be careful...I did not move here with any preconceived notions and did not set myself up for this, this was just another move for us and we were looking forward to it becasue Utah is so beautiful and has so much to offer our family...I am intelligent enough to know what is happening to me and my family and to know that this is completely and totally unacceptable behavior...and that it is due to the fact that we are non-lds, could you please all just accept it for what it is and leave it alone, give others a chance to read it and absorb it without all the unnecessary comments...that's all I am asking, I don't need advice, censure or condemnation.

[Lmejh]

This is what Utah County is known for... total closed-mindedness toward outsiders. I realize you probably have thought of this already, but if you can definitely try moving to somewhere in Salt Lake County. I don't think your experience that went on there would have happened up in Salt Lake. It's so unfortunate that this still goes on, and to think just forty miles south of me this is happening. Again, I'm truly sorry that my state has given you this experience

[flyinlow]

Hell! i'm a native of Utah and would never consider living in the holy land (Utah County) if you can consider residing in Utah County living.