The lowdown on us Mormons... (Salt Lake City, Cottonwood Heights: cost of, best, area)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by SportyandMisty

I'm back online -- and back in Park City enjoying Utah's famed skiing (although it has been a dry winter).

Enjoy it quick. It's about to start melting. Yeah! Spring is coming!

Here is a hypothetical question.

Under other circumstances, I would invite a neighbor out for a cup of coffee (or over to my house for one - I am one of those "coffee snobs" who roasts his own coffee beans!) as part of getting to know my neighbor more and being somewhat neighborly.

Let's say hypothetically I know my neighbor is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (digression - is it appropriate to say "member"? or is another noun more appropriate? I think I just picked up here that it might be more appropriate to refer to my neighbor as a "Latter Day Saint"). So, knowing my neighbor is LDS, and not wanting to put my neighbor ill at ease, I wouldn't offer coffee.

Just say, "LDS" and you're be fine.

Now of course, putting coffee snobs like me aside, the purpose of sharing a cup of coffee isn't the beverage - it is the human interaction and discourse. But saying "let's grab a cup of coffee" is a polite way to initiate the contact.

So... can you suggest a few things that might be LDS-friendly as an alternative to "come over for coffee" or "let's grab a cup of coffee" where the real purpose is to get to know a neighbor and foster polite conversation?

I think that getting to know someone over a cup of coffee is such a nice tradition, but I agree that you'd probably want to make sure your neighbor knew that your point in inviting her over had nothing to do with what beverage you were going to drink and that you'd provide an alternative beverage for her.

I actually had that happen to me years ago when my kids were just toddlers. A family moved in around the block with kids about the same age and we shared a backyard fence. One day she called me over for a cup of coffee. I accepted, and walked around the block to her house. I was so afraid of making her feel uncomfortable that I didn't say a word about the coffee. I just sat and drank it. (I cannot even begin to tell you how much I hate coffee. It was pure torture! ) About half way through our conversation, it dawned on her that she'd just committed a social faux pas, and blurted out, "Oh, no! You're a Mormon! You don't even drink coffee, do you?" What followed was an awkward conversation with me saying something like, "Well, not very often." Both of us stammered around the subject for a few minutes and then went on to talk about other things.

If you were to invite a neighbor over to get acquainted, just put it that way. If you mention coffee at all, add that you'll have some hot chocolate, too. If it's summer, you might offer a glass of lemonade instead. A lot of practicing Mormons drink Coke products, though some don't. (I practically live on Diet Coke myself.) If you have Coke on hand, you could offer that, or pick up some Sprite or some other non-caffeinated beverage. I think the important thing is that you not make it sound as if drinking a cup of coffee together is the point of the visit.

[irman]

Originally Posted by SportyandMisty

So... can you suggest a few things that might be LDS-friendly as an alternative to "come over for coffee" or "let's grab a cup of coffee" where the real purpose is to get to know a neighbor and foster polite conversation?

First things first, and the easiest way is to be aware when your neighbour is outside doing something, like taking the garbage out or whatever.
Just talk to them, and from there, it is almost a *no brainer*.

My neighbpours are NON LDS, and we always talk to each other, or at least wave. After about 3 months, the sharing of food started, like cookies etc ....
(our neighbuors came in after us). One of our neighbours has a green thunb and she is from the far East. In summer we get *inundated* with stuff, I absolutely do not what to do with ....

Today (five years later), we are all looking out for each other. We share addresses where we can be reached when any of us are away for a while on vacation.
We share tools, like chainsaws, or wood splitters. Next door is a *Welder*, so he is the local fixer upper when it comes to welding stuff.

In the end, is this not what it is all about ?

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by IdahoMormon

Interestingly enough at the church web site there is a link where you can find a meeting house. It uses Google Maps, and is pretty usable. After you find the closest meeting house, you can click on it and it will tell all the wards that meet there and their meeting times. As well as the phone number of the ward office.

Yes, this was in the late 1990s, when that stuff wasn't posted online.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by IdahoMormon

I think I can imagine that. I remember being the only man in a roomful of women when they started talking about childbirth. Sometimes not only could I not relate, I didn't even know what they were talking about.

However, someone eventually asked me for my side of the story on what it was like being the husband when my wife was in labor. I got to tell what it felt like to get kicked out of the room, and how much I hate it when my wife is in pain and I can't do anything about it.

We have several converts in our ward. Actually I don't know how many there are. It doesn't come up in conversation very often. The young men president is convert and I didn't know it until last month. I happened to be in the hall after one of their activities and one of the young men was asking him questions. He told us the short version of his conversion story. It was pretty cool. I've always been a little bit envious of converts because I don't have much of a conversion story.

Your example is a pretty good one. However, the difference is the women knew you never bore a child. If you're a convert, people don't necessarily know that right away.

I find that interesting that you envy converts. I never thought of it that way. In some ways being a convert is harder (not being able to relate to other people born and raised in the Church) and in other ways it's easier (not getting stuck in one track thinking that some who are born & raised in the Church fall into).

All in all, I'm glad I grew up Catholic & converted. I think I have a more wholistic outlook on life as a result of being in both religions.

[SportyandMisty]

Originally Posted by markg91359

... Its impossible to know for certain what percentage of Mormons pay a full tithing. The church doesn't give out the numbers. I can say this: In my ward, statistics are given out about what percentage of members hold a "temple recommend". That percentage was just over 50%. You can't get a temple recommend unless the Bishop in your ward is convinced you are paying a full tithe. My guesstimate is that about 50% or a little more of LDS people pay tithing. Although, it may well be less than that in poor countries overseas. Active members who pay tithing believe that (1) its a test of their faith; (2) they receive spiritual blessings in return for obeying the commandment about tithing...

Sometimes it is interesting to compare. So this may be considered off topic - I hope not too off topic - but I thought I'd offer it up in the spirit of sharing information.

In California, my neighor's synagogue requires a full 10% to be a member. They require you to declare your IRS Form 1040 Adjusted Gross Income and they require you to pay a full 10% (they have a waiver for very young couples). It is in a very high income area (Silicon Valley) and in a highly educated area (there are 7 Nobel Prize winners who are members of the synagogue) and of course it is also a high cost of living area (Palo Alto/Stanford/Menlo Park/Atherton/Woodside/Los Altos/Los Altos Hills/Cupertino). They require 10% not merely on your paycheck but also on stock options and warrants and restricted stock units and other compensation as well -- the full IRS Adjusted Gross Income (AGI).

My neighbor was having a bad year financially - he paid less - they cashed his check, but called him on the carpet saying he had to pay more (at least the previous year's 10%). He responded he was having a bad year financially and his income was down substantially. The hierarchics said they required copies of his W2s and all 1099s (from stock brokerages, etc) and all his IRS 1040s for the past 5 years as a condition of accepting his lower dues, and if he didn't supply either more money or documentation of lower income then he was not a member any more. They said they, too, have expenses and members have to pay to be members and there is no free lunch. The synagogue does have high expenses - they have something like 8 or 10 full time rabbis on the payroll, each of whom make well over $100K/year and the head rabbi makes over $250K plus medical/dental & pension.

End of digression.

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by SportyandMisty

Sometimes it is interesting to compare. So this may be considered off topic - I hope not too off topic - but I thought I'd offer it up in the spirit of sharing information.

In California, my neighor's synagogue requires a full 10% to be a member. They require you to declare your IRS Form 1040 Adjusted Gross Income and they require you to pay a full 10% (they have a waiver for very young couples). It is in a very high income area (Silicon Valley) and in a highly educated area (there are 7 Nobel Prize winners who are members of the synagogue) and of course it is also a high cost of living area (Palo Alto/Stanford/Menlo Park/Atherton/Woodside/Los Altos/Los Altos Hills/Cupertino). They require 10% not merely on your paycheck but also on stock options and warrants and restricted stock units and other compensation as well -- the full IRS Adjusted Gross Income (AGI).

My neighbor was having a bad year financially - he paid less - they cashed his check, but called him on the carpet saying he had to pay more (at least the previous year's 10%). He responded he was having a bad year financially and his income was down substantially. The hierarchics said they required copies of his W2s and all 1099s (from stock brokerages, etc) and all his IRS 1040s for the past 5 years as a condition of accepting his lower dues, and if he didn't supply either more money or documentation of lower income then he was not a member any more. They said they, too, have expenses and members have to pay to be members and there is no free lunch. The synagogue does have high expenses - they have something like 8 or 10 full time rabbis on the payroll, each of whom make well over $100K/year and the head rabbi makes over $250K plus medical/dental & pension.

End of digression.

WOW! Just wow That is actually very interesting. I never realized some could actually get dunned by their church!

[SportyandMisty]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

I tend to think it's more because the banks in UT didn't go as crazy with the stupid loans as banks in other parts of the country....although thrift and keeping debt to a bare minimum are also very much preached in the LDS religion...

Elsewhere in this excellent thread a few LDS have described how the LDS Church, through contributions by individual LDS Church Members, allocates money to those among you (us?) who are most financially unfortunate - my interpretation of that has been to keep food on the table. Very laudable.

Does this extend to financial support for LDS who inadvertently got in over their heads in the Real Estate mess -- help to keep low income familes in their homes?

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by SportyandMisty

One view of the roots of the real estate meltdown the country experienced is that in the early 1990s, the administration realized that large swaths of Americans farther down the economic ladder were missing out on real-estate based wealth creation because they didn't own homes (they were too poor to get a mortgage). So the government modified the regulations implementing the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 to require banks, thrifts and other mortgage originators to extend mortgages to people farther down the economic ladder as a condition of doing business & implementing their business plans (e.g., opening or closing a branch, merging with another institution, etc). (For details, read House of Cards by William Cohan, an excellent account of the history and ultimate collapse of the Wall Street investment bank Bear Sterns).

So banks & mortgage companies lent money to those who previously didn't qualify because they were farther down the economic ladder ... and the rest is history.

Here is my question.

Elsewhere in this excellent thread a few LDS have described how the LDS Church, through contributions by individual LDS Church Members, allocates money to those among you (us?) who are most financially unfortunate - my interpretation of that has been to keep food on the table. Very laudable.

Does this extend to financial support for LDS who inadvertently got in over their heads in the Real Estate mess -- help to keep low income familes in their homes?

.................................................. ..................................................

Allocating money to church members for welfare is up to individual bishops. Rest assured, they don't have unlimited funds to spend for this purpose. Here are some examples of help that is typically given:

1. A young couple in the ward has little left for food after paying rent and utilities. The bishop will write an order directing the employees at the Bishop's Storehouse to give free food to the couple.

2. An elderly woman on Medicare and Social Security cannot afford her copayments for her medicines. The Bishop can see to it that the church makes these payments.

3. A single mother in the ward can't afford to pay the plumber. The bishop might direct the President of the Elders Chorum to fix the problem in her home--if they have the expertise.

4. A couple is having trouble with their finances--less because of economic trouble than because of poor management. In such situations, the Bishop might direct another ward member who is a Certified Public Accountant to try and teach the couple how to do a better job managing money. While they are learning they might get some limited assistance from the church.

I haven't heard any stories about members losing their homes because of the real estate mess although I'm sure it has happened. There is a belief in the church as well as outside it that people must be responsible for their own financial decisions. I'm not saying there wouldn't be assistance in the type of situation you've described, but it would definitely be limited. The church can't and won't bailout members who make poor financial decisions.

[Woody1950]

Does anyone remember the early eighties? I was a young father, electrician by trade, unemployment soared, there was no work. I was supporting my family of four, along with my Mom, Dad, and Uncle. I always paid my tithes. I got laid off. There was NO work nationwide. My Father died. I had a meeting with my Bishop and Elders quorum President. I was told to bring All of my bills in. Without asking the Welfare System of the Church took over. I did maintenance on church buildings and installed the new Satellite Dish at the Stake Center. Along with my young family my Mom and Uncle were also Taken care of.

My wife divorced me because I wouldn't take a job paying less money then I received from unemployment. My Bishop agreed with me.

I have never missed the money I pay in tithing. I was given a job, not a handout. I kept my dignity, self respect, and pride a tradesman has for his work. Everytime I'm at the Stake Center I see my Satellite Dish, I smile, remember, and feel good all over again. I came to learn that everyone needs help sometime in their life. It give others a chance to help, and receive the Blessings for doing so.

. The math I'll give you 100% if you give me 10% back. It's a great deal. I never have been let down.

Did I mention this went on during Christmas 1983? On Christmas Eve there was a knock at the door. Friends from our Ward rushed in with a tree,presents and all the fixings. A young fathers prayer was answered. 10% is cheap if you ask me. It is so much harder to receive and very humbling. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. Great Christmas1

To the Convert: We are all Converts, I've been a member 50 years, I was converted when I was 25. I had been inactive for eleven years. My family has been LDS a hundred years, it doesn't matter.

[Kurvinek]

Well said Woody.
Not only I remember the 80's.Moderator cut: off topic, sorry not a chat thread