The lowdown on us Mormons... (Farmington: relocating, commuters, atheist)

[JaneyBlu]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'd say that LDS Christians believe that (1) No one is capable of saving himself. It is only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ that we can hope to be reconciled to God, and (2) Faith without works is dead. True faith in Jesus Christ requires us to be faithful to Jesus Christ.

(Let's not get too much into doctrine, people. The primary purpose of this thread is to help non-LDS Utahns adapt to life among the Mormons. )

Katzpur, I really appreciate what you are doing here. This is a great resource for people who have an interest in learning more about who is surrounding them when they move to Utah. I do have to be honest, though. I often feel that you are willing to answer questions, as long as they don't make the LDS church sound/look too bad...and everything else seems to get a quick reminder that you don't want to discuss doctrine. The fact of the matter is that you can't effectively have a thread entitled "the lowdown on us Mormons" without actually giving the lowdown on Mormons...and that inevitably leads to talking about what you believe. There are countless posts in this thread where you discuss what Mormons believe (aka, doctrine). I just think that you are quick to throw up the palm whenever you sense that someone is being critical of the church.

Like I said, I think you are doing a great job--and I do keep tabs on this thread. However, I don't think it is realistic to constantly try to control what people think or say. I hope that didn't sound harsh. I truly don't mean for it to come off that way. I just don't think that it is possible--or realistic--to have a discussion in a public forum and expect everyone to only discuss what you feel comfortable discussing. As long as people are respectful and stay on topic...I don't think that anyone should deter people from sharing their opinions or asking questions on subjects about which they're curious. Respectfully, if you want to avoid the difficult questions that come along with the benign ones, I would suggest that you consider blogging.

That said, I do think that you are an incredibly positive person and I enjoy your posts. I also know that you are very open minded and I really appreciate that. I hope that you'll take my words as friendly and constructive criticism from someone who is a fan.

[markg91359]

Just curious, but how is "the way salvation is taught" the same in the LDS church? Christians (or Mainstream Christians) believe that they are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Isn't this the exact opposite of what the LDS believe? Aren't following the rules and doing good works the key to salvation for Mormons?
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The LDS Church definitely teaches that salvation is a function of both grace and works. There is the oft-cited Biblical reference in James 2:17 that "faith without works is dead".

Mainstream Christians, as you put it have often raised this as a major point of difference or contention with the LDS Church. They feel salvation is entirely the result of grace and cite other scriptures for their point of view.

What I find interesting is that I think the reasons for the LDS Church taking its position are the result of more than just scripture. The Mormons were forced to come to Utah because they expelled from communities in the East and Midwest where they tried to establish their faith. When they arrived in the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, they found a very sparse and almost barren area. It took a huge amount of work and effort to turn the Salt Lake Valley into a sustainable community.

Its my observation that we do more than many churches do. We run a welfare program for the poor. We make a huge missionary effort. Since we don't have a professional clergy, the members do this virtually on their own with very few experts to guide them. These programs couldn't be run without a large amount of effort by church members.

The life of the church has been more than just scriptural references. It has been experience. Experience has taught us that abundance can only be achieved through hard work.

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

Although Katzpur started this thread, ultimately it is my deciison as to what stays or gets deleted. I think it should be about cultural practices, such as the 3 hr block of time, or who supports missionaries, or a hundred other things - not what is salvation. We have a Relgiion forum for that.

[motormaker]

Katzpur, is a very neat, lady Hope to here from her.

[JaneyBlu]

Originally Posted by motormaker

Katzpur, is a very neat, lady Hope to here from her.

Actually, she and I have been corresponding via DM. I had actually forgotten that this thread had been closed at one point for some fairly hostile discussion. Evidently, there was a lot of discussion that took place off this thread as well and the end result is tighter control over what is said here. I can't say that I totally agree with it, but I do understand why it is being done.

[Katzpur]

Okay, everybody has got to stop embarrassing me -- RIGHT NOW!

[ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?]

Well I suppose there is nothing wrong with a thread discussing the mechanics of Mormonism and Mormon life leaving the doctrine and religious discussions regarding the faith to the appropriate venues. The only difficulty I see is there is no set line dividing the two, and the two components are indeed melded together on so many levels.

Almost like trying to ride a bicycle frame with no wheels, or the wheels with no frame. but with a concerted effort it could be done (the Mormon discussion of course, not the bicycle example)

Glad to see the thread is back out of the "Time Out" room again....LOL

[SportyandMisty]

Originally Posted by MilehiDenver

My question would be this....
How do Mormons feel about the fact that most Christian's consider Mormonism (is that even right?) to be a cult? Not trying to stir up a fight, just curious how an LDS'er would respond to this VERY COMMON thought process.

I disagree with the premise. I do not think it is common for most non-LDS Christians to consider LDS a "cult." I am not LDS, and I have never met a non-LDS (Christian or otherwise) who has said anything like that. In fact, just the opposite; I've only heard LDS referred to as "Good People" and with some awe.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by SportyandMisty

Sometimes it is interesting to compare. So this may be considered off topic - I hope not too off topic - but I thought I'd offer it up in the spirit of sharing information.

In California, my neighor's synagogue requires a full 10% to be a member. They require you to declare your IRS Form 1040 Adjusted Gross Income and they require you to pay a full 10% (they have a waiver for very young couples). It is in a very high income area (Silicon Valley) and in a highly educated area (there are 7 Nobel Prize winners who are members of the synagogue) and of course it is also a high cost of living area (Palo Alto/Stanford/Menlo Park/Atherton/Woodside/Los Altos/Los Altos Hills/Cupertino). They require 10% not merely on your paycheck but also on stock options and warrants and restricted stock units and other compensation as well -- the full IRS Adjusted Gross Income (AGI).

My neighbor was having a bad year financially - he paid less - they cashed his check, but called him on the carpet saying he had to pay more (at least the previous year's 10%). He responded he was having a bad year financially and his income was down substantially. The hierarchics said they required copies of his W2s and all 1099s (from stock brokerages, etc) and all his IRS 1040s for the past 5 years as a condition of accepting his lower dues, and if he didn't supply either more money or documentation of lower income then he was not a member any more. They said they, too, have expenses and members have to pay to be members and there is no free lunch. The synagogue does have high expenses - they have something like 8 or 10 full time rabbis on the payroll, each of whom make well over $100K/year and the head rabbi makes over $250K plus medical/dental & pension.

End of digression.

Sheesh! One more reason to like LDS for their lay, unpaid clergy.

[Amber_Evie]

I have a question. My husband and I are considering relocating to Utah, to give our children and better, wholesome upbringing.

One thing I'm really worried about now, is I am an atheist. I'm worried how I will be viewed since most of the people are LDS. Would they be open to talking to me and getting to know me? Will they try to get me to take up their religion? Or will they avoid me?

I have many friends and family who are religious, I have no problems with others beliefs. I am friendly with everyone, love everyone for who they are. But I have some religious people here now who act like I am a devil worshiper. I'm just worried I will move to a whole new place and make no friends because of my beliefs.

I would have no problems with being friends with mormons. Will they have problems being friends with me?

P.S. My husband is agnostic (sp?) and has no problems with any religions, he just hasn't really considering following a religion. And I am raising my kids to believe what they want. I want them to decide for themselves what they believe in.