Opinions of a Non-Mormon Female in Utah (transplants, living in)

[osugirl2]

Originally Posted by lisamikefoster

Perhaps I'm fairly biased, I'm a member of the flock, born and raised here, but have also lived elsewhere throughout the country and have just returned to Utah after about 15 years of living outside of Utah (most recently in Austin, TX).

With that being said, I think the culture is what it is. The Mormon influence in Utah is undeniable, but Utah was founded by Mormons, and was and continues to be governed by Mormons, for better or for worse. The culture that exists here is a result of a major denomination being in control of the state (religiously, culturally, legislatively, artistically, etc...)for over 150 years. It's likely not going away.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that the culture is akin to covert racisim as the OP implied, however, I can understand and appreciate the difficulties that one must face here when not part of the dominant culture. However, those regional cultural differences exist across the nation. In many parts of the south for example, evangelical Christianity is the norm, with "Have a Blessed Day", "WWJD", "Christian Owned and Operated"...etc... found in businesses, govt. offices, and the like. "Dry" counties are frequent, and the restrictions on alcohol in these counties make the Utah alcohol oddities appear minimal.

While I don't want to minimize the cultural oddity here in Utah, I do think that it's like any other area in the world that has a dominant culture. And one's experience in that culture is colored by their ability to understand the cultural differences and adapt to them. Finding a good social support network and focusing on the positive things of the culture can go a long way to making an experience a positive one vs. a negative one where nothing is as we want it to be.

While I don't feel anyone would disagree with what you've said, I think the OP's main concern is the lack of a social support network, and her inability to find like-minded people to befriend and/or date. I don't believe she is expecting the culture or mormons to "go away" or expecting that it's going to change anytime soon. I too believe that thinking positively can go a long way in one's attitude, but I also think it's unhealthy to simply ignore the negatives. Sometimes, when you're having a tough time, you just want to vent a little and be validated, you aren't necessarily slamming anyone and you aren't even necessarily looking for a solution.

[osugirl2]

Originally Posted by JaneyBlu

Hi everyone. I rarely post, but I have been following the Utah forum for a couple of years now and I think that it is an incredibly useful tool for those people who are considering a move to this beautiful state. In keeping with that idea, I wanted to post a little about my experience living here as single, non-Mormon female.

My intent is not to cultivate any anti-Utah sentiment or to discourage anyone in my demographic from moving here. I simply feel that sharing my experience in this forum will help anyone considering a move to Utah to make a more informed decision.

That said, I will say that I have had a difficult time fitting in and living here. I moved here almost 2.5 years ago for a job opportunity.

Reading through the threads in this forum, I often see people who have similar fears about fitting in, dating, etc.--and for every question, there are several people who pipe in with words of encouragement. Yes, there are neighborhoods that are less conservative and more diverse. And yes, maybe only half of the people in Salt Lake proper (which is actually quite small relative to the size of SL Valley) are LDS. But make no mistake about it, Utah revolves around the Mormon culture and you can feel it everywhere you go.

Some people who are not LDS say that they moved here from elsewhere and have never had a problem. I feel that these people generally (not exclusively) fall in to one of two categories. Either they are still in the honeymoon phase of their move to Utah OR they greatly value Utah for all it has to offer in terms of outdoor recreation and live very active lifestyles. Again, this is just my opinion. Obviously, this doesn’t apply to everyone. This is just an observation.

But, yes, there are big cultural differences that most people notice when they move to Utah. Recently, stycotl made some comments on a thread that I thought were spot on. He said that:

“Mormon culture bleeds into almost all aspects of society in Utah, from politics to school curriculum. There is nothing inherently wrong with that-to a degree-and beside that, this is an issue for another thread, but Utah definitely has a different culture.”

I think that what stycotl wrote above was very well put. Though I disagree with Utah being "mostly the same as anywhere else you go," as he said in that same thread, I really appreciate a member of the local dominant culture acknowledging the huge differences that exist. They do exist--no doubt about it--and it can be difficult for people who are not familiar with the local culture to become acclimated.

I think that the issue may be that people who are lifelong Utahns or members of the local dominant culture may not realize how quirky Utah seems to outsiders because this is what they know. I could name many things, including the liquor laws (that are finally changing), but really it is an overall feel that you get. Perhaps that feeling comes from the fact that many people seem a little naive or closed off to the world outside, regardless of how much they've traveled or where they served their missions...or the way that some children exclude others because they are not a part of the same church or culture (I say this from first hand experience, as my younger siblings and I suffered terribly when we lived here as youngsters). Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, call Utah a “bubble” with good reason. The culture is vastly different from anywhere else and it is rock solid! Utah is a microcosm…and to live here means being exposed to that culture. And the people who make up that culture, as nice as they may be, can at times be extremely judgmental.

Many people come to this forum asking about whether or not Mormons are taught to shun those of us who are not members of the church. While I don’t think that the bishop stands in front of the church telling people to shun non-members each Sunday, I don’t think that it is a simple question of “birds of a feather flocking together” either. I do feel that church members do tend to have more in common with each other and, therefore, “flock together.” However, I also think that the church teaches its members that it is “the one true church”--and I think that this necessarily breeds some feelings of superiority in the community, especially since the majority of Utahns are LDS. I also think that many people will deny that this happens because it is a difficult thing to admit to. I don’t think that this means that Mormons treat people poorly--quite the contrary, in fact. I just think it means that there something akin to racism that non-Mormons deal with to a certain extent. It is much more covert than it is overt…but it is there and I am thrilled that there are non-Mormons out there who live in Utah and never experience it or notice it.

Just my humble opinion here, but I feel that many locals are quick to jump to Utah's defense when these threads come up. And believe me, when I am traveling and people tease me about living in Utah (I have heard many jokes on TV too), I am the first to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about. Utah is beautiful state and a natural wonderland. It is also friendly, laid back and very clean…all great traits that are tough to find elsewhere. However, these threads come up for a reason. People are curious for a reason. If there were absolutely no truth to some of the rumors about living in Utah, it wouldn’t continue to come up.

Yes, only half of the people in Salt Lake proper might be LDS, but the statement is a bit misleading for people considering a move here. Salt Lake proper is not huge and many of the non-Mormons that live in the area include immigrants, a large gang population and people of meager means. I know that this sounds horrible and, believe me, I don’t want to spark any controversy here. I just don’t want for people to expect that the half of Salt Lake proper that is not LDS to be comprised of mostly well-read yuppie non-Mormons that drink their wine and go to the ballet. Yes, there are many who live here who do--but it is not the entire non-LDS half of the city.

And yes, you can find some neighborhoods that are less conservative than others, but they are often very expensive areas where the houses are smaller and older, such as Sugarhouse or the Avenues. If you want to pay less and get more house for your money, you must look in the newer, more suburban areas like Sandy, Draper, South Jordan and others. You may pay less and get more house for your money, but you are certainly far away from the more liberal and diverse areas of the Salt Lake metro area--and that can be difficult for single people or families concerned about heavy Mormon influence.

The singles scene is also not typical here and dating can be difficult. Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, tend to marry very young in Utah and I feel that the pickins’ are slim. I don’t mean that there aren’t any good men/women out there. I just mean that the percentage of the population that is single and professional in this state is far less than anywhere else, I’m willing to bet.

Things have been especially tough for me in this realm. As I have mentioned in other threads, I haven’t had great luck in meeting people here. My opinion is that single people here (or men, at least) tend to either be the mountain man type who lives for the outdoor recreation or the Nascar-loving/beer drinkin type--neither of which are my “type.” I am more into the intellectual type male--and single thirty-something intellectual men seem to be few and far between. There are also many men who are divorced and looking to connect with someone, but many have children, which is fine, but not ideal for a girl in her thirties who is looking to have a family of her own one day. Many of them are LDS as well and have a very clear idea of what they want their life to be--and that typically means finding a Mormon wife with whom they can build a life that revolves around the church. In other words, most of them are looking for a girl who is also LDS.

In the end, I really think that your experience in Utah as a non-Mormon depends largely on how involved with the community you are. If you would be bothered by having some colleagues that graciously decline to partake in happy-hour (and blush when you ask), then it may not be the place for you. If you would be bothered by feeling judged sometimes (it happens), then it may not be the place for you. If you are single, professional, over thirty and looking to date, my feeling is that it is definitely not the place for you. ;-)

If, however, you are not bothered by any of the above and are looking for a beautiful place that is clean, friendly, affordable and offers a myriad of outdoor recreational activities, Utah could be a great place to set up shop.

I have avoided using any specific examples of the difficulties I have personally experienced in Utah in this post, just because I don’t want to spark a giant online controversy. However, I am more than willing to share my experience with the world if anyone is interested hearing the problems I have personally experienced as a non-Mormon in Utah.

Best of luck to all!

Janey,

I would be interested in hearing about more of your experiences

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by osugirl2

Sometimes, when you're having a tough time, you just want to vent a little and be validated, you aren't necessarily slamming anyone and you aren't even necessarily looking for a solution.

I agree. I will vent something off to my DH. Like a man, he will give me solutions or try to fix it for me. Sometimes, I don't need it fixed, or he CAN'T fix it. I just want his ear to listen and his shoulder to lean on.

I also think that is what Janey was looking for. Just an ear to listen and her post was very nicely written without slamming or accusing. No matter how much you love Utah (or any place for that matter) there are always going to be things that you don't agree with or that bug you. That is just human nature.

[Oildog]

Interesting post. Not long ago I had been offered a good job in the SLC area but turned it down. Thought the area was beautiful, but there were 'intangibles' I felt which I couldnt really explain during my many visits to the area. I had the feeling that people were trying to avoid me, and if they found I wasn't a member that was often the last conversation I had with them....and the movie the Stepford Wives came into mind as I walked around town and while shopping. I dont mean to stereotype, I've met a number of nice people there...and have met some surreal non-LDS folks in the small bible belt towns of TX and OK as well.
Anyhow I decided it wasnt for me. But I think the OP did a nice job of explaining some things I felt or experienced while spending some time there.

[dcisive]

Janey, I feel just about every word you posted was dead on accurate in describing the lifestyle and people of Utah. I too am NOT from here originally. I came at first back in 1978. You wanna talk about closed society, my goodness back then if you didn't attend the local ward you were indeed an outsider. I had a friend come out to visit me back after I moved in and got settled. He loved the cleanliness (it was back than) complete absence of crime, gangs etc. (remember this was 1978). He moved his wife and 2 kids out to Sandy (which back then was the edge of the population). He lasted 6 months and moved back to Illinois.

The kids were brutal to his and they were ostracized for not being LDS. Now today that would not likely be so much the case, but I can assure you you would still be OUT of the circle so to speak. I know when I do go out of town on vacation or visit friends in California, Oregon, Washington, or Colorado it's like going to another planet. yeah, it's THAT different. People are NOT the same here as anywhere else. I won't belabor this as you've already elucidated it so well. Some folks here think all I do is bash Utah and would prefer I just leave.

I must say a day in Park City is refreshing, as it is very "un Utah" like in regards to the so called culture. I fully understand your feelings. If I weren't married I seriously doubt I would stay long. I have a home we built and a good job with a future, so it's hard to think about just uprooting that kind of stability. However if the job or home weren't the issue, indeed I'd look for another pasture. Hope your life takes a turn for the better as well.

[simply1]

Sorry to hear that Janey, I think that can be an issue regardless of location, but I'm far from a worldly traveler so.. Best of luck.

[eggalegga]

Great post, Janey.

I am a non LDS Utah native. Further, I don't want kids so that just reduces the list of potential husbands for me. I am not an outdoor enthusiast nor am I into the art/theater scene. I gave up years ago on finding a husband/boyfriend. If it happens, I'll embrace it. If not, I'm okay with that too. I spend a lot of my spare time working on projects around my house or spending time with friends & family.

Growing up in Utah county, I always felt that I didn't fit in there. My family was Catholic and we lived two houses away from an LDS church. When I was young, one neighborhood girl told me she couldn't play with me because my dad drank and smoked. As an adult, I can just shrug that off...as a child, it was devestating. My niece, who now lives across the street from that same LDS church, is married to my nephew and they are both LDS. She told me that she socializes with her neighbors across the street from her. When her fellow ward members caught wind of this, they asked her why she was befriending these neighbors....they're not LDS. My niece just told them that they are people first. And getting to know her neighbors and each sharing a sense of community was more important that a religious connection. I was quite proud of my niece for doing what she thought was best for her and her family regardless of what the other ward members might think.

I do not miss the narrow minded people I encountered in Utah county at all. Not all were/are narrow minded. Most of my family still lives there but I'm glad I moved north.

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

This thread got me thinking about what it might be like for a UT LDS person to move where I resided for many years - New Orleans. It would be a culture shock for certain!

Social activities revolve around eating and drinking, not necessarily in that order; almost all the food is much more flavorful through judicious use of spices than UT food. Everyday language from just about everyone uses at least one word that the LDS person would not like, probably a lot more than just one word. Modest dress is a casualty of the heat and humidity and mores of the culture. If you have more than 3 children, people look at you strange. While there are some child-centered activities, there is not the abundance like there is here. There are some parks, but not as many as here.

The dominant religion is Roman Catholicism. In the 1st 54 yrs of my life, I knew just one LDS person. I don't know where there is a ward house or stake center, I never saw any as I traveled around the city. I had a co-worker here who married and moved to VT. She said her ward encompassed 3 towns and they had to drive over to the next town to attend services.

So, if you've never lived anywhere except UT, think about yourself as an LDS person in New Orleans - you'll get a feel for how UT is perceived by others.

[frogandtoad]

Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah

This thread got me thinking about what it might be like for a UT LDS person to move where I resided for many years - New Orleans. It would be a culture shock for certain!

Social activities revolve around eating and drinking, not necessarily in that order; almost all the food is much more flavorful through judicious use of spices than UT food. Everyday language from just about everyone uses at least one word that the LDS person would not like, probably a lot more than just one word. Modest dress is a casualty of the heat and humidity and mores of the culture. If you have more than 3 children, people look at you strange. While there are some child-centered activities, there is not the abundance like there is here. There are some parks, but not as many as here.

The dominant religion is Roman Catholicism. In the 1st 54 yrs of my life, I knew just one LDS person. I don't know where there is a ward house or stake center, I never saw any as I traveled around the city. I had a co-worker here who married and moved to VT. She said her ward encompassed 3 towns and they had to drive over to the next town to attend services.

So, if you've never lived anywhere except UT, think about yourself as an LDS person in New Orleans - you'll get a feel for how UT is perceived by others.

Great parallel.

[irman]

Originally Posted by lisamikefoster

the culture is akin to covert racisim

How about *discrimination* rather than *racism* ?

I am for sure NOT a *racist*, but I sure do *discriminate*.

I do stay away from a *certain kind* of people, mostly if there ideas and life styles are way different than mine.
Those people are just acquaintances, the other people become dear friends.
If that makes me a *bad person*, so be it, but then show me a person who does NOT discriminate somewhere, somehow ...

I am a pilot and fly for fun on week ends. We have 30 plus people in our group and everybody seems to have the same ideals, so we *click* and do things together a lot. I think we are 50% LDS, the rest, I have no idea. The subject never comes up.

I also do have other hobbies and thus I belong to a different group of people there. Still the same ideals.