welcome to utah, najanyx (six years late, but still...); i write this assuming that you even plan on returning to the forum.
i intend to debunk a few things, but i need to provide a legal disclaimer that i am not telling you that your experiences didn't happen, that i don't disbelieve you, etc, etc, ad nauseam (you'd be surprised how often that is the first assumption made when one of us tries to provide a counterpoint).
first, you keep generalizing "they," "them," etc. that makes it very hard to determine who you are talking about. do you mean racist utahns, racist mormons, or just all utahns and all mormons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Najanyx
If anyone is considering moving to Utah, I would suggest that they consider other places. Utah is one of the worst states for minorities to live in. I have lived here for six years and married into a Mormon family. According to traditional Mormon beliefs colored people are the descendants of Cain.
|
mormons don't believe that blacks descended from cain. there have been some mormons within the 20th century that believed that, and some of them were authorities in the church, but it is not actual mormon doctrine, and it isn't even the prevailing belief (not since the 19th century when it was a common belief among almost all christian churches–justification for slavery).
Quote:
|
They named their best university after a white supremacist.
|
that is a pretty harsh judgment, but i can understand where you are coming from.
Quote:
|
They are not just "ignorant of diversity" as someone stated. Colored people being inferior is central to their belief system.
|
again with the "they" accusations. who? utahns? some utahns? who? there are actually a decent number of utahns/mormons that have lived in very diverse conditions in exotic countries half way around the world and know quite a bit about it. granted, not all of them have, but i would bet that utah is on the high end of the curve with regards to that statistic.
and, no, colored people being inferior is not a central belief of mormonism, especially since it is not even a belief period–not doctrine anyway. i have known *individuals* that believe stuff like that, but i also know of individuals that believe in reincarnation, UFOs and other stuff that is not an actual doctrine of the church.
Quote:
|
The Mormons are also extremely abusive to women and it is hard for females in general to find decent paying employment.
|
those are two separate issues. you have anything to back up the accusation that mormons are "extremely abusive to women?" i find that rather offensive, especially with how well my father treats my mother, and how well i try to treat my wife.
the second issue is debatable. equal opportunity int he workplace is a national issue, international actually, and utah hardly owns a monopoly on that stock. now, if there are studies out there that claim that utah is still lagging in that department, i would like to see them. it would be interesting to see if that could be proven, and if it was, what it would be tied to; conservatism? rural living? religion? or as you claim, mormonism?
Quote:
|
I have lived here for a long time and I am a college student. I can tell you after living in many states in the US that I have never seen racism and sexism as bad as in Utah.
|
i have lived all over the usa and in a few countries outside of the usa, and i have seen many places worse than utah for both sexism and racism. then there are other kinds of prejudice: religion, economic class, social birthright, education, etc.
in the end, they are both anecdotal evidence. i think that the perspective of the viewer is much responsible for what ends up being seen.
Quote:
|
It is blatant and built into the institutions at all levels. This prejudice is also extended to people who divorce. Basically, if you are any of the above categories you WILL be discriminated against to the point that it is difficult for you to completing daily tasks.
|
another series of generalizations. all levels. any of the categories. if we are to intelligently discuss social issues such as these, we should use specifics. otherwise we end up thinking that we are arguing about the same thing when we are not.
Quote:
|
Today I took my children to the hospital and was told by the woman at the desk to use a side door because the side door was for people riding the bus. She didn't know how I came and told me to use another door so that there would not be too many people in the lobby. She said that only people with cars could use the front door. This was at the Primary Children's Hospital in Salt Lake City. Her determination that I was not allowed in the building was based completely on race as I am half African American and half white. I do not see any good in sugar coating the truth.
|
it seems to me one of two possibilities, and as i said earlier, i am not going to disbelieve your account–frankly because i wasn't there and so i can't say. but generally this kind of ridiculous scenario breaks down to either a legitimate racist idiot (which utah does unfortunately have), or extreme miscommunication.
i have found that almost every time i suspect someone of something like this, it ends up being an issue of me presuming and misunderstanding, or them not knowing how to speak or interact intelligently in public and therefore offending people even though they didn't mean anything bad.
Quote:
|
Some of the whites are so racist in this state that they will as you if you know how to read because you are colored.
|
again, stupid people, or miscommunication. i have known people that believe stuff like this about blacks, but most of them were from the east coast (although three or four of them from the same group were from wyoming...).
Quote:
|
If you are female and dating, many of the Mormons will give you long lectures on how you are going to hell if you do not repent.
|
i am completely confused as to how that makes sense to anyone, even strange, fundie mormons. can you elaborate?
Quote:
|
Others will call you a ***** if you are divorced.
|
i will assume that you have met some dumb, judgmental people. sorry to hear about that.
Quote:
|
People do not over state the racism here. It is greatly understated. Women here do not have the same rights.
|
really? what rights are women lacking in utah?
Quote:
|
Mormon's believe that unmarried women cannot get into heaven at all unless a man calls their name, that men are "God's in training" that will become Gods of their own universe when they die and that blacks are the descendants of Cain and sinful.
|
it is true, mormons believe that women cannot get into the highest level of heaven without being eternally married in the temples. but we also believe that men cannot get in either unless they are married. so, that doesn't sound too unfair to me.
Quote:
|
They also believe that men are allowed multiple wives in heaven because they will be Gods (like Islam's 10000 virgins for maryrs.)
|
well, honestly the women are believed to be goddesses as well. i am not sure how all of this will work, but it is true that mormon men can be sealed to more than one woman, but not vice versa.
i chalk that up to something that will be corrected later on, like blacks not being able to hold the priesthood even after smith had personally ordained one. either way, this one always bothered me too, but i don't try to pretend that i know everything.
Quote:
|
Women have almost no power in their religion because they are taught that they are answering to a God when they answer to their husbands.
|
waaaaaaay out of context. women are not treated as if they are answering to a god when they interact with their husbands. they are treated as if they were interacting with a preisthood holder that supposedly receives inspiration specifically for them.
the priesthood is supposedly a calling to service; to be a servant in other words. the same scriptures that talk about the priesthood of the men talk about the hellfire that awaits any man that abuses his priesthood, especially regarding coersion and manipulation.
further, within heaven, we believe that women are also goddesses and priestesses. so, unless you don't believe in eternal life, there is more to it than just the guys hoarding it now.
and lastly about this topic, your complaint could be equally tied to every church that believes in the holy bible, which teaches the same thing, except that it doesn't talk about the men receiving the priesthood.
in official mormon belief, male dominance is an unjust dominion, and that hellfire that i mentioned earlier comes into play right about then. man and woman are supposed to be a cooperative team under the authority of God.
Quote:
|
They are also assessed by males at church who determine what is called their "personal worth."
|
personal worth? are you making this up now, or are you being fed this by someone else?
if you are refering to priesthood interviews, men go through the same process, so it has nothing to do with women answering to men.
Quote:
|
If you do not believe what I say, you can simply look up Joseph Smith on wikipedia or Brigham Young. He has a lot of quotes degrading women and blacks. The Mormon's named their college after a man who had multiple wives--many that ran away from him, and some as young as 13. It is very disturbing and I am confused at how the rest of the country as seemed to sleep on what is actually going on here. The Mormon's play into people's belief that everyone is basically kind and attempt to make a better case for their practices than those practices deserve.
|
you seem to be rambling now. i understand that sometimes you need to vent, so go right ahead. i don't defend joe smith, brigham young, or any of the other church leaders as perfect guys. in fact, i don't defend paul, peter, john, moses, or anyone else of that charge either.
however, i still believe that they were called of God.
Quote:
|
Pick another state! You will be so much happier living some where else than here and you will save yourself the cost of moving out.
|
now, this might truly be the option that one should pick. but it should be based off of individual study and experience, and does not apply to every situation. if it did, there would not be whole groups of people claiming the exact opposite. but there are, not only in this thread and across the internet, but in person; many people live utah; many people claim that it is the least racist/sexist/unfriendly/ignorant place that they have lived.
perspective counts for a lot. but so does individual experience, and while one person might be surrounded by the nicest neighbors, best schools, least racist people in one area of town, another person might be living in a veritable hell only two blocks away.
utah is not for everyone. it has its issues, some of them almost unique, but most of them fairly common (underbudgeted schools, heavily conservative, small community inexperience with the rest of the world, etc), but it also has much to offer.
so, in the end people should think long and hard before moving to utah–but then again, they should do that before moving anywhere.
aaron out.
