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Old 01-30-2011, 02:27 PM
 
Location: USA
498 posts, read 723,251 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Spoiler
I don't understand your question. I jog because I want to spend what time I have on the planet healthy (in as natural a way as possible). I've never had a close encounter with a jogger while driving. What I meant is that I have had several encounters, as a jogger, with cars. And in every case, the driver was not obeying the law. And I've never been the sort of Lycra-clad jogger who runs down the middle of the road saying "check me out," either (there are some who do, which puts them in the wrong if they have a bad experience with an auto).

Here's one example of what I mean: I'm jogging on the walking/bicycle path in a local canyon. I come to a place where the trail crosses the road. There are clear warning signs on the road in both directions about walkers/joggers/bikers and the crossing that is ahead. The speed limit is reduced in the area. The crossing is on a semi-blind corner/hill crest. There is no way to hear or see an oncoming car from that direction if the auto is breaking the speed limit by very much. I'm pretty careful here, but like I said, as a jogger, you're basically blind and deaf at this crossing. I always sprint across it (when I deem it safe) rather than trusting that drivers will be obeying the posted speed limit. Last summer, a car was going so fast that, even sprinting, I was very nearly hit. The guy had to practically lock his brakes up and I still narrowly escaped being hit--we're talking close enough to scare the s%&# out of me.

Normally, we could pass this off as just a bad driver that doesn't care if he runs somebody down, as long as he saves a couple minutes getting to his destination. But the thing is, very few people drive at or below the speed limit on that road. I know, because I typically go no more than a couple of MPH above the limit driving to the trailhead and often have people right on my tail (following way to closely) in an attempt to browbeat me into going faster. I don't. Too bad for them.

The way I see it, traffic laws have a reason--and the reason is not to annoy people. It's to keep others safe and have some semblance of order on the road. There needs to be better enforcement of traffic laws around here. And this is coming from a rather radical freedom-centered, Libertarian-like person. I just don't believe I have (or anyone else has) the right to endanger others because I'm too impatient to drive properly. Honestly, if nobody else is on the road, drive as stupidly as you wish. But if someone else is on the road, you have a responsibility to them. My attitude is that you have every right in my book to play Russian roulette as long as the barrel is pointed at your head... but you don't have the right to point the barrel at me.


As an aside, I think that an "inconsiderate driver" is actually often an "oblivious driver." Way too many people play with toys when they should be paying attention to their driving. I don't think that they are necessarily intentionally negligent fools (some are), but just the same, it isn't going to matter to the person they crash into or run off the road or whatever. They are just as affected either way. In other cases, it's obvious that a person doing dumb things on the road really doesn't know that they are doing dumb things. They don't know the laws. Both of those cases is as much the fault of the driver education system as it is the person's. Maybe we just need to be a bit more careful about putting people behind the wheel of a potential several thousand pound weapon without providing them the knowledge needed to keep it from being a weapon. Education: I think it could go a long way in this case. Show people what can happen if they are texting while driving (it's worse than drunk driving) by showing them films of the bloody accident scenes. Show what can happen when you don't know what you are supposed to do in a given situation on the road. If a person has a little fear and respect for the piece of machinery they are operating (the car), it might help them make better driving decisions.

As for statistics, if you take into account the population of the two states, Utah's fatal crash rate in 2008 was higher than California's. Utah is 1.06 per million and California is 1.05 per million. The worst state (for 2008) looks to be Montana (wow! Never would have guessed that) and the best, Massachusetts.
You know, I really don't think anyone is going to argue that bad driving is a good thing. I don't understand what the point of that post was. But you still don't seem to understand what the problem with the logic of this thread is.

No one is trying to downplay bad driving or pretend that there's no room for improvement, but in order to solve problems, you have to properly understand them, which you clearly don't. Every time you say "Utah driver," you are including every driver in Utah. You're not referring to the "bad" ones, or the amount of "bad driving." No, you are talking about everyone. This whole thread has been a hysterical rant about how bad Utah drivers are. You're included in that group, so every offense you or anyone else has described, you are guilty of, according to your logic. You can't say "Utah drivers do this, but I don't." The term "Utah" includes you. The term "invariably" includes you.

Perhaps you think I'm being facetious but I have good reason to be nit-picky. If you really want to solve problems (which I presume you do, judging by your emotional attachment to this issue), you can't be vague. Being vague (i.e. judging driving quality by state of residence) leads to exaggeration (i.e. "everyone does this except me"), which leads to hysteria. I understand the spirit of your argument/concern, but the letter of it is messed up. You need to address issues on their own, one by one, not under offensive, over-encompassing, illogical labels. That's generalizing, and all it does is take attention away from the real issues. Just address each issue on its own, without any unnecessary baggage. Otherwise you're just trying to convince me that a square has no corners.

I was crossing a crosswalk on State Street at 100S yesterday and had a close call with 2 drivers turning left. Yeah, it upset me. Sure, I think the drivers of those two cars were being lazy, and I got mad at them. But I don't attribute this event to the fact that I'm in Utah. I don't attribute this event to a general trend that I've noticed that supposedly has some common underlying cause. Correlation does not imply causation. It was an isolated event, and even if it had happened on multiple occasions, there would be no justification to blame the problem on Utah, or some other factor that obviously is far too encompassing to be the sole or predominant cause.
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:36 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,246,696 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamborgotti View Post
You know, I really don't think anyone is going to argue that bad driving is a good thing. I don't understand what the point of that post was. But you still don't seem to understand what the problem with the logic of this thread is.

No one is trying to downplay bad driving or pretend that there's no room for improvement, but in order to solve problems, you have to properly understand them, which you clearly don't. Every time you say "Utah driver," you are including every driver in Utah. You're not referring to the "bad" ones, or the amount of "bad driving." No, you are talking about everyone. This whole thread has been a hysterical rant about how bad Utah drivers are. You're included in that group, so every offense you or anyone else has described, you are guilty of, according to your logic. You can't say "Utah drivers do this, but I don't." The term "Utah" includes you. The term "invariably" includes you.

Perhaps you think I'm being facetious but I have good reason to be nit-picky. If you really want to solve problems (which I presume you do, judging by your emotional attachment to this issue), you can't be vague. Being vague (i.e. judging driving quality by state of residence) leads to exaggeration (i.e. "everyone does this except me"), which leads to hysteria. I understand the spirit of your argument/concern, but the letter of it is messed up. You need to address issues on their own, one by one, not under offensive, over-encompassing, illogical labels. That's generalizing, and all it does is take attention away from the real issues. Just address each issue on its own, without any unnecessary baggage. Otherwise you're just trying to convince me that a square has no corners.

I was crossing a crosswalk on State Street at 100S yesterday and had a close call with 2 drivers turning left. Yeah, it upset me. Sure, I think the drivers of those two cars were being lazy, and I got mad at them. But I don't attribute this event to the fact that I'm in Utah. I don't attribute this event to a general trend that I've noticed that supposedly has some common underlying cause. Correlation does not imply causation. It was an isolated event, and even if it had happened on multiple occasions, there would be no justification to blame the problem on Utah, or some other factor that obviously is far too encompassing to be the sole or predominant cause.
Very good post! I don't get how people can't understand this?
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:28 PM
Status: "Are you a technophiliac zombie?" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
6,666 posts, read 5,376,895 times
Reputation: 6277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamborgotti View Post
You know, I really don't think anyone is going to argue that bad driving is a good thing. I don't understand what the point of that post was. But you still don't seem to understand what the problem with the logic of this thread is.

No one is trying to downplay bad driving or pretend that there's no room for improvement, but in order to solve problems, you have to properly understand them, which you clearly don't. Every time you say "Utah driver," you are including every driver in Utah. You're not referring to the "bad" ones, or the amount of "bad driving." No, you are talking about everyone. This whole thread has been a hysterical rant about how bad Utah drivers are. You're included in that group, so every offense you or anyone else has described, you are guilty of, according to your logic. You can't say "Utah drivers do this, but I don't." The term "Utah" includes you. The term "invariably" includes you.

Perhaps you think I'm being facetious but I have good reason to be nit-picky. If you really want to solve problems (which I presume you do, judging by your emotional attachment to this issue), you can't be vague. Being vague (i.e. judging driving quality by state of residence) leads to exaggeration (i.e. "everyone does this except me"), which leads to hysteria. I understand the spirit of your argument/concern, but the letter of it is messed up. You need to address issues on their own, one by one, not under offensive, over-encompassing, illogical labels. That's generalizing, and all it does is take attention away from the real issues. Just address each issue on its own, without any unnecessary baggage. Otherwise you're just trying to convince me that a square has no corners.

I was crossing a crosswalk on State Street at 100S yesterday and had a close call with 2 drivers turning left. Yeah, it upset me. Sure, I think the drivers of those two cars were being lazy, and I got mad at them. But I don't attribute this event to the fact that I'm in Utah. I don't attribute this event to a general trend that I've noticed that supposedly has some common underlying cause. Correlation does not imply causation. It was an isolated event, and even if it had happened on multiple occasions, there would be no justification to blame the problem on Utah, or some other factor that obviously is far too encompassing to be the sole or predominant cause.
If you've never heard the term "Utah Driver" before, it's a slang term for "poor driver in Utah." Just replace the former with the latter and that should clear the intended meaning up. It was not used with intent to mean every person who operates a motor vehicle in the state of Utah. You are treating this forum as you would a scientific manual. But slang/metaphor/satire/allusion/hyperbole/etc is a common part of our language that one could safely assume might show up outside of scientific and/or technical writing.

I'm not blaming the problem on Utah, I'm blaming it on the reckless drivers I see each day and hear about on the news in Utah. Do the cars drive themselves? I don't know how old you are or how long you've been here, but I DO remember the way people used to drive around here (IN GENERAL) compared to the way they drive now (IN GENERAL). And there most certainly is a general trend. Whether that general trend is occurring elsewhere, I don't know or care--I drive here, not there.

Here is what I understand just fine: there are too many lousy (not lousy in a literal sense, if that's what you are thinking) and/or inconsiderate and/or negligent drivers on the roads that I'm familiar with in the SLC/Provo metro areas. It needs to be improved. End of story.
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:00 PM
Status: "Are you a technophiliac zombie?" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
6,666 posts, read 5,376,895 times
Reputation: 6277
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
Just think how much more you will get to complain about in your future state, they are number 1, the worst, you will be in heaven!
Well, there are more people living in Utah Valley than the entire state I'm moving to. The town I've bought property in has a population of around 200. I think I'll be able to handle the traffic there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
We all know you hate it here but saying your experience should be what we all experience is ridiculous.
I wouldn't say hate. True, I'm not a good fit for densely populated areas. Yes, the traffic drives me absolutely bonkers at times. Yes, it's too hot in the summer around here. But Utah does have a lot going for it once you get away from the Wasatch Front area. The geographic diversity is magnificent. The history is endearing. I could probably be happy in a place like Price, Fairview, Vernal/Roosevelt, Delta, etc. Driving certainly IS more relaxing out there! But in the end, the influx of people has just driven land prices far too high--even in the small towns and rural areas.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:56 PM
 
78 posts, read 126,956 times
Reputation: 49
Well, personally I'm happier with the traffic here then in NM.

Here in Utah, the yellow lights are a decent length of time, but in NM, the yellow lights are far too short, giving only a tiny window to brake (and hope that the guy behind you stops, too) or risk running a red light.

I've already been hit on my scooter because of this, and I've seen far worse crashes from other people trying to stop in time. Add in the high percentage of drunk drivers in NM (which also, thankfully, isn't much of a problem here), and, well... I'll take a bit of rudeness to be in less danger while driving.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:37 PM
 
18 posts, read 16,450 times
Reputation: 14
Question How do you Do it??

I drove again yesterday and I fell as if I am going bald. was cut off filipped of po. Man even saw people talking on phones 4 accidents 3 cut offs. whats the trade secret.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:16 AM
 
15 posts, read 16,184 times
Reputation: 10
Does utah have the no texting or cell phone law yet?
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:28 AM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,892 posts, read 9,526,362 times
Reputation: 4593
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheesyPeach View Post
Does utah have the no texting or cell phone law yet?
Was this question prompted by last night's Extreme Makeover Home Edition?" According to the map they showed, we do have such a law. I'm not sure if it just pertains to texting, however, or also to talking on a cell phone.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,246,696 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Was this question prompted by last night's Extreme Makeover Home Edition?" According to the map they showed, we do have such a law. I'm not sure if it just pertains to texting, however, or also to talking on a cell phone.
More laws usually lead to more distraction and distracted drivers are a problem, not just cell phones or texting. When they ban something people still do it yet they spend time looking for police as opposed to the road. We need to focus our money and energy on car safety and automation, since we can never really ban all distractions.
Even if we ban ALL distractions (phones, eating, talking, reading, radios, etc.) we would only eliminate 20% of all injury accidents. An interesting fact is since cell phones have become popular overall accident rates have decreased.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:09 PM
Status: "Are you a technophiliac zombie?" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
6,666 posts, read 5,376,895 times
Reputation: 6277
Have you ever followed someone while they were texting? They drive like someone who is about four times over the legal alcohol limit. If texting while driving remains legal, we may as well repeal the laws against drunk driving. They are about sixes.
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