Proposed I-5 and 205 Value Pricing (tolls) (Seattle, Vancouver: how much, buying, construction)

[cyberous]

Oregon Department of Transportation : Portland Metro Area Value Pricing : State of Oregon

What are your thoughts? I think something needs to be done.

[skeddy]

DC Metro area have built express lanes.


https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...464401153.html

[texasdiver]

Seattle also. There are essentially four basic approaches to increasing highway capacity.

1. Creating new free lanes or entirely new freeways. This is pretty much the Texas approach, continue to build highways endlessly until you get to this which is I-10 in West Houston:



2. Creating new toll lanes or entirely new toll roads. This is also the Texas approach where the state has contracted with private companies to build entirely new toll roads where none existed before.

3. HOV lanes for buses and carpools. These are common pretty much in every big metro area but Portland. In the larger metro areas like the Bay Area they are often 3+ occupants per car. In smaller metros they are often 2+ occupants per car.

4. Combo toll and HOV lanes. This is what is happening now in DC and Seattle. The HOV lanes are tolled for cars and free for buses and certain carpool vehicles that have special passes. The tolls are often adjustable during the day based on congestion, going up during peak hours and dropping during low hours.

In the greater Portland area there is probably some room for highway expansion on the edges of the city but Portland is an old city and there really isn't that much room for highway expansion in the central city where congestion is the worst. I-84 is bordered by rail on one side and steep embankments on the other so really no room at all for new lanes at any price. I-5 through Central Portland has all kinds of development around it making expansion extremely expensive. Highway 26 is constricted by the tunnels and a new tunnel would cost billions. I-205 and I-5 on the northern and southern edges of Portland are probably easier to expand given enough money but that wouldn't necessarily solve the biggest congestion areas at the bridges and central Portland.

Personally I'd welcome a new HOV/Toll lane through Portland on I-5 and 205. It would greatly speed up the bus options into Portland and would provide a higher speed alternative for people willing to pay the tolls when it is urgent. But only if it is combined with improvements at the worst bottlenecks. I don't see the point of it they just impose tolls on existing lanes without adding any new capacity as that isn't going to accomplish anything if there is no alternative. I guess the idea of tolls is to decrease the amount of discetionary traffic into Portland during peak hours but I'm not sure how much that will work if people don't have good alternative ways to get to work.

One positive from my point of view since my wife and I both work and live in Vancouver and really don't go into Portland much, is that the endless traffic hassles across the bridges might end up stimulating more retail and restaurant options on this side of the river if people get too frustrated trying to get into Portland. That would be a positive from my point of view. I get tired of having to cross the river to find more interesting restaurants.

[cyberous]

Yea, I think the thought process is if people have to pay during peak hours they will utilize alternatives.

1. Don't go
2. Car pool to cut down on cost
3. Use public transport

I recently took the C tran bus for the first time (Hayden Island to City Center, on a Saturday) the bus was fairly empty (4 people total) . My impressions were mixed. I thought it was kind of expensive $1.80 to basically go 2 miles. I know buying a monthly pass would cut down on the cost. However it was stress free not having to deal with bridge traffic.

[swWAgal]

Traffic is definitely abysmal! But I don't know that a full toll on the road is a reasonable step to take. Maybe toll one lane at most right now, and see what kind of effect it has on the congestion. I do worry about the impact this could have on people who live in WA and commute into Portland. It could be a big deal to a lot of families if a full toll is enacted. But then again, maybe it will spur more businesses to stay on the north side of the river, knowing fewer people may want to cross the bridges. All in all, it seems like an interesting experiment and I have mixed feelings.

[cdelena]

The congestion is a result of poor management by government bureaucrats over the years. These tolls will not help but just injure citizens and grow the bureaucracy. With a bike lane and light rail inventory of solutions, and desire to blame the public don't hold your breath for relief.

[Jimrob1]

Tolls are no fun believe me. They are all over much of Fla, and the cost gets outrageous. The cost can really eat into your budget.


.I left Portland 6 years ago, when I retired. The traffic was horrible then, I can only imagine it's much worse now.

I agree something has to be done and fast. The area has never built the new bridge, or expanded rail into Vancouver. There have not been any new roads or fwys built. So what exactly do people want to do, because compete gridlock is knocking on Metro Portland's door. I just don't think tolls are the answer though.

[texasdiver]

Bottom line?

If we ever expect any new bridges or even new lanes then eventually some sort of high capacity mass transit is eventually coming to Vancouver. That is a political fact because Oregon/Portland will never spend a dime on increasing capacity into Clark County unless Clark County agrees to join the rest of the metro area in making major investments in mass transit. Many Clark County commuters are in denial about that reality. But it is the reality. Politically there is ZERO chance that Oregon/Portland will approve or share in the costs of any increased bridge/freeway capacity into Clark County along I-5, I-205, or some new bridge UNLESS there is a serious investment in mass transit. Oregon has no interest in paying a single dime to simply bring more Clark Co. commuters onto Portland's already completely congested streets.

What does that mean? It doesn't mean simply throwing a bunch of additional C-Tran express buses onto the street that will be stuck in existing traffic lanes. There are really three basic options:

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) which is extra big buses running on their own dedicated lanes

Light Rail such as the existing MAX lines with overhead wires that can run on existing streets

Heavy Rail like the NY and DC metros that run with third outside rails for power and require 100% dedicated rights of way or tunnels because you can't have grade crossings or sidewalks crossing over electrified third rails. The third rail for big subway cars are used instead of overhead wires to allow lower overhead clearances in subway tunnels and because heavy third rails can carry more current and are more reliable than overhead catenary wires.

Now theoretically it would be possible for Clark County to build its own independent BRT or rail system into central Portland. This has happened in other parts of the country such as NYC where New Jersey has its own separate PATH subway trains that run into lower Manhattan and don't connect to the NYC subways (you have to change trains). But it would be ridiculously costly for Clark County to go it alone because they would have to acquire all new rights of way along I-5 or I-205 into Portland for either a new BRT or rail system. And even more expensive to punch a new subway line from Vancouver into central Portland.

That basically leaves tying into the existing MAX system. Which seems like a political lightning rod on this side of the river. But honestly it is coming or there will be no new bridges or even new bridge lanes. Portland's attitude is going to be: "you want to join the greater metro area with increased bridge access and all the investments that will require? Then you need to join us on making major investments in mass transit. Because otherwise we have no interest in all your additional single occupant commuter vehicles on our streets" And Portland will win that argument because Clark County needs Portland a whole lot more than Portland needs Clark County.

So if MAX lines are eventually going to push into Clark County as part of any new bridge then Clark County might as well make the best of it and use whatever political leverage is available to force improvements along the entire system to the benefit of Vancouver commuters. For example, the MAX yellow line runs pretty slowly along surface streets up to the Expo Center. If that is going to be the trunk route for an expanded yellow line from Vancouver in Portland then Vancouver should insist on improvements along the entire Portland section to speed up operations, perhaps add in additional tracks for express lines, and that sort of thing. Other systems such as those in NYC have both local and express trains. Vancouver should insist on whatever is possible to make it an actual high speed rail commute into Portland

As for the topic at hand? I would support the construction of ADDITIONAL express lanes along I-5 that are dedicated transit and carpool lanes with adjustable tolls for single occupant vehicles as appropriate to keep capacity and traffic flow at maximum. But I would oppose the imposition of new tolls on existing lanes that we have already paid for long ago. I don't see that as accomplishing much in the way of congestion relief.

[PNW-type-gal]

The problem with I-5 is that there are multiple bottlenecks, of which the I-5 bridge is just one. Expanding the bridge to double the lanes still dumps traffic into the 2 and 3 lane bottleneck at Delta Park and then the bottleneck at the I-5/I-84 split.

So the solution can't just be "add new lanes" it has to be a combination of mass transit and massive public works. And there is the rub, Clark County voters don't think much of mass transit.

And I don't see how a toll lane could be added to the existing I5 bridge (which already has narrower-than-standard traffic lanes) without effectively removing one lane of traffic. Most places that do it with an electronic toll function still have a separated lane. The answer to to rebuild the section of I-5 from south of the city of Portland all the way through to Salmon Creek as it should have been done decades ago and ramp up mass transit - Oregon came close to doing it and Washington flatly refused to pay for it.

The longer the wait before something gets done, the more expensive it will be - although, as an aside, that's the bias in economic analysis of projects, the further something can be pushed out into the future, the "cheaper it gets" because of unrealistic assumptions of the future value of money (which ignores the fact that the problem deteriorates with time and becomes even more expensive to fix).

[cdelena]

Originally Posted by PNW-type-gal

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mass transit
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Light rail that competes with surface traffic is hardly 'mass' transit, just an expensive alternative. Dedicated lines coupled with bus routes serve movement better but the expense of implementation in a crowded exiting environment is usually cost prohibitive.

A long term issue... and the a current plan of tolls on existing roads a disservice to the public.