Do People Argue With You When They Find out You're A Veggie? (chocolate, doughnuts)
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People choose vegetarianism for a variety of reasons: Religion, health, peer pressure, those big round sad eyes of baby animals, etc. Many, possibly most people who become vegetarians do so without thoroughly thinking through their motive for vegetarianism, and that naturally leaves them open to a kind of argumentation that calls on them to justify their decision.
In fact, these forums are living proof that most people make most of their decisions without thinking them through very thoroughly. And argumentation is not necessarily a bad thing.
Try Nietzsche's reply: "I did my children the favor of not having them".
Personally I think eating meat is what people should think more carefully about before choosing. If more people realized what happens in factory farms, what chemicals and hormones are saturated in the meat, and how much easier it is to be healthy and not overweight without meat (and dairy), there would be more vegetarians for sure. But meat is the 'default' diet in our society, so actually probably most vegetarians do think more about their diet than most carnivores.
So, you say it's good for vegetarians to be confronted about their vegetarianism, because they probably didn't think enough about their decision. But it really makes more sense for meat eaters to be confronted about their diet because they most likely haven't thought much about it at all, doesn't it?
People choose vegetarianism for a variety of reasons: Religion, health, peer pressure, those big round sad eyes of baby animals, etc. Many, possibly most people who become vegetarians do so without thoroughly thinking through their motive for vegetarianism, and that naturally leaves them open to a kind of argumentation that calls on them to justify their decision.
In fact, these forums are living proof that most people make most of their decisions without thinking them through very thoroughly. And argumentation is not necessarily a bad thing.
Try Nietzsche's reply: "I did my children the favor of not having them".
I like that reply. I'll have to remember that!
By why should a person have to justify anything they do even if they don't have a "good reason?" If you make a choice to do something and it is a good reason to you (general) then that's a good enough reason! IME most vegetarian people have a reason...don't want to eat animals, health reasons, religion, don't like meat, whatever. I don't argue with a person eating a hamburger. Them saying they are eating it "because they like to" isn't a good enough reason, is it? So I should argue, right? <tic>
By why should a person have to justify anything they do even if they don't have a "good reason?" If you make a choice to do something and it is a good reason to you (general) then that's a good enough reason! IME most vegetarian people have a reason...don't want to eat animals, health reasons, religion, don't like meat, whatever. I don't argue with a person eating a hamburger. Them saying they are eating it "because they like to" isn't a good enough reason, is it? So I should argue, right? <tic>
Humans are animals. Animals do not think about what they eat. They eat what they want, because that is what they are supposed to eat, according to their evolved physiology. You can't out-think what you are, and you evolved from ancestors who recognized that meat was a dietary component that provided nutritional benefit. Thinking about what you eat moves you further, not closer, to the dietary ideal that has evolved with you as an animal.
In short, eating a diet that includes meat is natural for the human animal. Excluding foods that one has a hard-wired desire to eat is what is not natural. It is the natural arguing with the unnatural.
If you are you my guest, and I offer you safe and healthy food (which is what meat is), and you refuse it, that is a social affront that can legitimately be argued with. You may eat whatever you want in your private life, but if you insult others by refusing a gesture of good will, you can be seen as crossing a line.
Humans are animals. Animals do not think about what they eat. They eat what they want, because that is what they are supposed to eat, according to their evolved physiology. You can't out-think what you are, and you evolved from ancestors who recognized that meat was a dietary component that provided nutritional benefit. Thinking about what you eat moves you further, not closer, to the dietary ideal that has evolved with you as an animal.
In short, eating a diet that includes meat is natural for the human animal. Excluding foods that one has a hard-wired desire to eat is what is not natural. It is the natural arguing with the unnatural.
Now. If you are you my guest, and I offer you safe and healthy food, and you refuse it, that is a social affront that can legitimately be argued with. You may eat whatever you want in your private life, but if you insult others by refusing a gesture of good will, you can be seen as crossing a line.
Hmm.. There is a lot of research out there that suggests the opposite, that humans are NOT meant to eat meat. (shape of our teeth for one) I don't think anyone is hard-wired to eat meat. I certainly am not. Even before I decided to not eat any at all, the thought of eating birds was nauseating to me. Biting into a piece of fried chicken, for example, and knowing the bones are there or seeing a vein...UGH!!! My hard wired desire is to eat what makes me feel good and what makes my body funtion at it's best. Clogging my colon with beef does not fulfill that desire.
And really? We DO think about what we eat...or at least we should. Sure, some people just shovel in whatever is handy, but that's not everyone. I think about everything I eat. I think about whether I should have a whole grain for this meal, or if I should have less carbs for the next because I had pasta for lunch. I think about getting in fruits and veggies every day, about making sure I have enough fiber to keep things moving, and I make sure to drink at least 2 liters of water a day to stay hydrated.
Early man may have "needed" meat in order to eat a healthy diet, but his choices were limited. He didn't have a grocery store full of other options for protein (and other nutrients) that are even more readily absorbed and digested by his body. I think we have come a long way since the days of living in caves.
I myself have never intentionally "insulted" anyone by not taking what they offer. I don't even think that's what this thread is about. People all eat all kinds of different things and I don't think anyone is obligated to eat something they don't want to or don't like just to avoid insulting someone. For example, someone in my office is having a birthday today and they offered me a slice of cheesecake to celebrate. I personally do not like cheesecake, so I declined with a "no thank you." Was that insulting? Did I refuse a gesture of good will? Or should I have just eaten it anyway because it was offered to me and felt queasy all afternoon? (which is what cheesecake does to me)
Good points, LT. And yup, with the cheesecake. I used to be the same way when doughnuts were in the work place. I know some co-workers thought I was "no fun" by refusing them----but I don't do well with fried food that's full of sugar. I would never have lectured them about fat/sugar/calories, so why did I deserve the lecture that I needed to "let loose?" I do enjoy food. And I have some things that are treats, like chocolate, a cookie, occasional ice cream. But doughnuts don't agree with me, except maybe the cake type (that many people don't even consider to be real doughnuts).
And jtur, yes, humans ARE animals, but we do have some cognitive capacities that other animals don't, yes? Then if we are sticking to our pure animal natures, I guess no one should use birth control (can't think of any other species that does) or drive a car (every other animal just uses their own body to get from one place to the next). Guess I won't be a guest at your house! Yes, it can be frustrating to deal with all the dietary needs and preferences---low calorie, gluten-free, vegetarian/vegan, low sodium, diabetic, allergies---but doesn't a good host want his or her guests to be comfortable? If I am going to feel sick emotionally or physically from eating an animal, doesn't that cross a line?
Also wanted to say that I just got back from a colonoscopy. Even though both my parents had colon cancer, at 57, I am still doing fine---and some of that may be due to my veggie diet (the high fiber and lack of meat, especially red meat). In fact, I was told that my colon is more twisted than most people's. That makes digestion/evacuation a longer process for me. Doctors feel that red meat doesn't digest all that easily and with challenged digestion, it would be staying in my system even longer:
And jtur, yes, humans ARE animals, but we do have some cognitive capacities that other animals don't, yes? Then if we are sticking to our pure animal natures, I guess no one should use birth control (can't think of any other species that does) or drive a car (every other animal just uses their own body to get from one place to the next).
exactly. people do things that aren't natural all the time - if we were living purely natural lives we'd be chasing down prey to eat (and getting so much exercise in search of so little food that we'd need to eat the most fatty parts of the animals). we wouldn't drive cars, we wouldn't farm, we wouldn't have computers or wear anything but fur, etc.
people have *natural* cravings for fat and sugar because of our caveman roots where food was scarce and we had to exert a lot of energy to get it, therefore we had to get as much energy as we could from what we did eat. now those *natural* cravings are killing people, because we live a lifestyle that is about as unnatural as it gets.
there is nothing inherently good about something being natural.
and jtur, would you be grievously offended if someone kept kosher or halal and declined to eat something at your house? would you start trying to convince them that their religious dietary restrictions are wrong?
i assume you'd be ok with someone declining due to allergies; well most vegans are lactose intolerant because lactose is something you actually have to build up and maintain a tolerance to. many vegetarians also have trouble digesting meat. eating what you offer could literally make someone sick, outside of violating their principles.
seriously, i think you are the one who needs to stop being so overly sensitive about what other people eat. it doesn't affect you. i have never thought twice about someone saying "no thank you" to any food i offered them, let alone been *offended* by it. i really don't care about their reasons - for all i know they just don't like what i'm offering and that's fine. i certainly don't start trying to pick apart their reasons - that seems like a much, MUCH ruder thing to do.
I worked for about a year in a busy clinic where drug reps often brought lunch in to us. One of the doctors had an assistant who never failed to tell everyone that she was a vegan (she pronounced the word "Veggin" as is vegetable, I guess) and then would go on to explain, loudly, that a "veggin" was a type of vegetarian who occasionally ate fish.
OMG! I really do need the ROTFLMAO smiley.
Veggin= apparently not to be confused with an actual Vegan. Love it.
Humans are animals. Animals do not think about what they eat. They eat what they want, because that is what they are supposed to eat, according to their evolved physiology. You can't out-think what you are, and you evolved from ancestors who recognized that meat was a dietary component that provided nutritional benefit. Thinking about what you eat moves you further, not closer, to the dietary ideal that has evolved with you as an animal.
In short, eating a diet that includes meat is natural for the human animal. Excluding foods that one has a hard-wired desire to eat is what is not natural. It is the natural arguing with the unnatural.
If you are you my guest, and I offer you safe and healthy food (which is what meat is), and you refuse it, that is a social affront that can legitimately be argued with. You may eat whatever you want in your private life, but if you insult others by refusing a gesture of good will, you can be seen as crossing a line.
Wow... I loathe it when people usethe word "natural" as some kind of justification for continuing to eat corpses. Plenty off human urges could be described as "natural" but most of us supress them because they aren't ethical. I think it's probably "natural" to have sex with many people, perhaps without their consent, but I wouldn't call it ethical. There are many urges we supress because of compassion or the "golden rule". Speaking of "natural", me taking to you in this medium isn't all that "natural" nor is this subdivsion that I'm living in that a forrest was bulldozed to build. My car isn't "natural", having heat in the winter and a/c in the summer doesn't seem all that "natural" either. Hmmm...guess me and most other human beings don't really give a s**t about what's "natural"
I don't view corpses as "food" so no amount of arguing with me will get me to eat it. I wouldn't come over to someone's house for a meal without letting them know that I don't eat rotting animal corpses first. If I then come over and that is what you try to serve me, or you berate me for not eating it, I would let you know what I thought of you and then our paths would not be crossing again. Making someone feel uncomforatable in your home is also a "social affront" and just really rude, btw.
You seem to be under the mistaken notion that vegetarians just stop eating meat on some kind of whim. I can assure you that other then the occassional rebelous teen all the vegetarians I know put alot of thought into the reasons behind it. It's incredibly condecending for you to imply otherwise.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 11-22-2011 at 06:32 PM..
Reason: Just fixed the quote code
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