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Old 02-20-2013, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,192 posts, read 22,283,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
Not that this has alot to do with this conversation (it might I don't know) but upon what I've read - why does it seem like alot of the people who go Vegan seem to do poorly and eventually return to eating meat YET the people who go on plant-based diets through Esselstyn, Mcdougall and Fuhrman do well and don't return to eating meat/dairy etc?? Is there something these so-called vegans are eating that isn't as nutritious as what the Dr's diets recommend on their plan? Even Rip Esselstyn got his whole crew of fireman on a strict plant-based diet and he said they all loved it. Could it be that these people are preparing foods that are in a more appetizing, nutritious way and they don't desire the meat anymore? These are all vegan diets that's why I'm really confused......
I was vegan for political reasons. It started because I was, and still am, against factory farming. I never once, however, thought that eating meat was wrong, gross, or unhealthy. I didn't just eat a vegan diet, I lived the vegan lifestyle. I had books on animal ingredients and the products they went into. I avoided as much of that as I could, but it is nearly impossible to be 100% vegan.

Veganism is a lifestyle, not simply a diet. So, I do not see I "did poorly". The term vegan is relatively new. Prior to it "they" were simply called vegetarians. But sometime in the early 80s the vegetarian diet began to take hold with health freaks, and who, added their own rules. Such as allowing dairy, eggs, and/or fish. So the term vegan was born in order to separate those who completely abstained from animal products. Perhaps there should be a new term for those who simply eat a vegan diet and ignore the rest of the lifestyle?

As I am sure you are aware, you do not need to be on one of these Dr's plans to be a vegan. When it comes to diet, you are either vegan or you are not; there is no "so called" unless the vegan in question is lying about what they eat, or don't eat. A vegan diet plan is an extremely restrictive diet, and like all restrictive diets, it is hard to maintain for an extended period of time. That is why diets fail in general. Then there are those who simply lose sight of why they went vegan in the first place, or achieved their "health" goal. These tend to be those who are not vegan for political reasons. Then, of course, some people simply change their minds. I will bet that at least half of the vegans on this sub-forum will not be vegans two years from now. Unless you are living the vegan lifestyle, the excitement will wear off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
It does make me wonder if these Vegans that are not on the Drs plans that do return to eating meat were just eating a bunch of crap and processed food.

And on another note - I often hear people say "my body was telling me I needed meat, fish etc." so that's why they went back to it. Well every day my body tells me it needs a piece of cake, candy bar, chips etc. Does that mean I should be eating them every day?
I certainly ate my share of junk/processed foods, but I was not on a "crap" diet. I bought organic, whole, foods and did a heck-of-a-lot of cooking. I think your confusing stems from your idea that veganism = healthy so if someone falls than it must be because they were unhealthy.

In case you were wondering, I stopped being vegan partially because of the vegan police, partially because I found vegans to be really annoying at times, partially because I began to question the vegan propaganda, and partially because my body was not keeping up. I ate organic as much as I could (afford), used Braggs Liquid Aminos, took vegetarian/vegan support supplements, and so on. Yet, I had no energy, was constantly tired (and hungry!), and could fall asleep at will it seemed. I would even go weeks feeling like I was on the verge of getting a cold, but I wouldn't. I just had that strange feeling you get at the onset of a cold. Something was lacking, and I could not figure it out.

Believe me, it was not an easy decision and it was one that I took very seriously. I tried to make it work, almost like an addiction. I spent roughly a year debating with myself over stopping and when I finally got over feeling guilty for wanting to quit and accepted that it was something I was going to do it still took another year before I finally went through with it.

There is no need to be ridiculous, yes, my body was telling me to eat fish. Note, I did not say my brain. I did not think Man, I miss (this particular food item)! A piece of it would taste really good right now. The first time I got the craving, it lasted for a few months and was downright maddening. It eventually went away only to return again a few months later. I couldn't take it, had a few bites of fish, after which the cravings completely went away. I am not saying that a vegan diet is bad, only that it did not work for me and a few others that I know and that those who are considering it, or currently on it, consider all sides of the argument to conclude their own decisions.

I was vegan between 1995 and 2003. I would estimate that around 85% of the vegans I knew from back then are still vegan today.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Prospect, KY
5,288 posts, read 17,920,744 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi View Post
I agree thinkingelsewhere. I believe you can be healthier eating smart with a full diet including meats, than you can eating vegetarian and definitely more so than eating vegan. It is simply a matter of ethics to refrain from meat or animal products, not a health choice.
We have been vegan for 8 months....it was a health choice.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:12 AM
 
65 posts, read 130,128 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
I was vegan for political reasons. It started because I was, and still am, against factory farming. I never once, however, thought that eating meat was wrong, gross, or unhealthy. I didn't just eat a vegan diet, I lived the vegan lifestyle. I had books on animal ingredients and the products they went into. I avoided as much of that as I could, but it is nearly impossible to be 100% vegan.

Veganism is a lifestyle, not simply a diet. So, I do not see I "did poorly". The term vegan is relatively new. Prior to it "they" were simply called vegetarians. But sometime in the early 80s the vegetarian diet began to take hold with health freaks, and who, added their own rules. Such as allowing dairy, eggs, and/or fish. So the term vegan was born in order to separate those who completely abstained from animal products. Perhaps there should be a new term for those who simply eat a vegan diet and ignore the rest of the lifestyle?

As I am sure you are aware, you do not need to be on one of these Dr's plans to be a vegan. When it comes to diet, you are either vegan or you are not; there is no "so called" unless the vegan in question is lying about what they eat, or don't eat. A vegan diet plan is an extremely restrictive diet, and like all restrictive diets, it is hard to maintain for an extended period of time. That is why diets fail in general. Then there are those who simply lose sight of why they went vegan in the first place, or achieved their "health" goal. These tend to be those who are not vegan for political reasons. Then, of course, some people simply change their minds. I will bet that at least half of the vegans on this sub-forum will not be vegans two years from now. Unless you are living the vegan lifestyle, the excitement will wear off.

I certainly ate my share of junk/processed foods, but I was not on a "crap" diet. I bought organic, whole, foods and did a heck-of-a-lot of cooking. I think your confusing stems from your idea that veganism = healthy so if someone falls than it must be because they were unhealthy.

In case you were wondering, I stopped being vegan partially because of the vegan police, partially because I found vegans to be really annoying at times, partially because I began to question the vegan propaganda, and partially because my body was not keeping up. I ate organic as much as I could (afford), used Braggs Liquid Aminos, took vegetarian/vegan support supplements, and so on. Yet, I had no energy, was constantly tired (and hungry!), and could fall asleep at will it seemed. I would even go weeks feeling like I was on the verge of getting a cold, but I wouldn't. I just had that strange feeling you get at the onset of a cold. Something was lacking, and I could not figure it out.

Believe me, it was not an easy decision and it was one that I took very seriously. I tried to make it work, almost like an addiction. I spent roughly a year debating with myself over stopping and when I finally got over feeling guilty for wanting to quit and accepted that it was something I was going to do it still took another year before I finally went through with it.

There is no need to be ridiculous, yes, my body was telling me to eat fish. Note, I did not say my brain. I did not think Man, I miss (this particular food item)! A piece of it would taste really good right now. The first time I got the craving, it lasted for a few months and was downright maddening. It eventually went away only to return again a few months later. I couldn't take it, had a few bites of fish, after which the cravings completely went away. I am not saying that a vegan diet is bad, only that it did not work for me and a few others that I know and that those who are considering it, or currently on it, consider all sides of the argument to conclude their own decisions.

I was vegan between 1995 and 2003. I would estimate that around 85% of the vegans I knew from back then are still vegan today.
I was not attempting to criticize the way anyone chooses to eat as I think some people confused what my question was. I already know there are many people who are vegans who do not follow those Dr's diets. And those usually are the people that return to eating meat at some point. My question was why does it seem the people who are NOT on these Dr's diets usually go back to eating meat and the ones who ARE on the Dr's diets usually DO NOT go back to eating meat? I'm trying to emphasize the wording so no one reads it the wrong way so I apologize for the capitalizations.

For the reference I am not a vegan or complete vegetarian for that matter. Everyone chooses to eat their own way and that is their own business. I just want to know what the people on the Dr.s diets are doing differently than the people who are not and just go vegan for ethical reasons. I asked my husband this same question and he seems to think it's because the people on the Dr's diets are usually sick to begin with and trying to reverse a condition. Maybe this is true and that is why they stick with it?? Although all those firefighters Rip Esselstyn got plant-based seemed to stick with it and they weren't sick so I'm not sure what the catch is

Regarding the body craving something - I was also trying to make a point that how does one know their body truly needs something? Every day I get severe cravings for sweets like cake. I can't even walk through a supermarket bakery without wanting to raid it. I feel my body needs it and sometimes late at night I get such bad cravings I have to get my mind on something else. Not to say I shouldn't have a piece of cake now and then, but do I need to have it every day I get a craving? Or does my body really need it? It makes me wonder if it's the same people feel when they say their body craved the meat.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Prospect, KY
5,288 posts, read 17,920,744 times
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Kristy - as far as how does someone know if they are deficient in vitamins/nutrients - doctors can, through blood tests, check the level of quite a few vitamins and minerals. I have been concerned about my B12 levels so my doctor scheduled me for blood work yesterday to check my levels for several things including B12. Good to let your doctor know when you are vegan or vegetarian. Since I've only been vegan for 8 months, I'm still a little worried about whether or not I'm getting sufficient levels of vitamins/minerals, etc.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:02 PM
 
65 posts, read 130,128 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattknap View Post
Kristy - as far as how does someone know if they are deficient in vitamins/nutrients - doctors can, through blood tests, check the level of quite a few vitamins and minerals. I have been concerned about my B12 levels so my doctor scheduled me for blood work yesterday to check my levels for several things including B12. Good to let your doctor know when you are vegan or vegetarian. Since I've only been vegan for 8 months, I'm still a little worried about whether or not I'm getting sufficient levels of vitamins/minerals, etc.
I have been taking a B50 complex every day and I'm assuming it's the synthetic kind I don't know. At some point when I have been doing this long enough I plan to have a full blood panel plus cholesterol check to make sure I am doing everything right. I don't think 3 months is quite long enough yet for me
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:31 PM
 
3,983 posts, read 5,747,362 times
Reputation: 4039
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusNEVERexisted View Post
Sanjay Gupta of CNN said if you go meatless just ONE day a week you reduce your risk of heart disease by 19%! Just ONE day a week!

Even if I eat nothing but chips, sugar, microwave popcorn, diet Coke, and vegan cupcakes?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,413,614 times
Reputation: 4316
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
\
For the reference I am not a vegan or complete vegetarian for that matter. Everyone chooses to eat their own way and that is their own business. I just want to know what the people on the Dr.s diets are doing differently than the people who are not and just go vegan for ethical reasons.
They are doing a lot of things differently, the average Vegan diet isn't particularly healthy. The typical vegan will replace meat, dairy, etc will mock meats, dairy substitutes, etc....and these foods are only marginally better for you. On the other hand the "Dr.s diets" are based on whole plant-foods and minimize (or eliminate) the use of sugars and oils. These diets are rich in nutrients and promote health, as a result people feel better on them and they stick to them.

I would add as well, that the veg*n community in the west has done a poor job at communicating nutritional information. For example, many veg*ns have a blase attitude towards protein and this leads to the under-consumption of protein which over time can make you feel poorly.

Regardless, I have been highly influenced by those "Dr.s diets" and wasn't sick when I changed diets. I will never return to my previous way of eating because I feel much better today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
Regarding the body craving something - I was also trying to make a point that how does one know their body truly needs something?
Food carvings are largely a matter of addiction, most of the foods people "crave" just so happen to be high in sugar, fat, salt, etc. The idea that the body is able to communicate its nutritional status to the brain and then the brain in turn can trigger carvings for foods it knows (how would it know?!) contains those nutrients....has little basis in reality.

When people "crave meat", its usually just a craving for something fatty and salty (most meat is prepared with salt). You'll notice that they don't run out and eat lean whole meats, they eat a hamburger, fatty steak, fried chicken, etc.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:29 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,135 posts, read 21,831,524 times
Reputation: 23216
Sorry, I don't believe the study. I don't think it is taking into consideration the need for protein to repair the cells. Back when most people ate more vegetables and a chicken on Sunday people expected to live a much shorter number of years. I know other factors are considered but eating low fat protein is much better than just vegetables, in MY opinion. You can do what you want to.

I have talked to missionaries who go to many third world countries where the diet is more vegetables have mentioned to me that the people there live a shorter lifetime because they do not get enough protein.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,425 posts, read 8,754,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missik999 View Post
Just think how much healthier it is to go meatless seven days a week.
You will live forever.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:20 PM
 
18,856 posts, read 31,618,340 times
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Just to balance this conversation, I don't think that people who eat meat, are "unhealthier" than people who are vegetarians. On a continuum, you may find a vegetarian, who eats, chips, pasta, bread, diet coke, and calls that "dinner". Same as you may find a meat eater, who eats 4 ounces of chicken breast on a salad...all people who eat meat, are not driving to the "Heart Attack Grill" every night for a quadruple bacon kill burger. Same as all vegetarians, are not eating a balanced diet of vegetables, grains, and whole foods.

That being said, most vegetarians are thinner than people who eat meat...vegetarians that eat healthy, and do not overeat carbs. Those people, are probably healthier. So, perhaps, a qualifier should be, on vegetarians who are eating a healthy diet. But, by the same token, meat eaters, who eat a healthy diet, are probably just as healthy...

There are no doubt, tons of studies, and statistics that prove, or disprove any theory.

Last edited by jasper12; 02-22-2013 at 10:25 PM.. Reason: edit
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