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Old 05-07-2013, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,418,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
Do I recommend eating that way? Of course not, but this idea that vegans, particularly are automatically healthier is based on someones ideas, not on scienitific proof.
Actually its based on observation....and observation that goes back thousands of years. You can find numerous studies that show greater life expectancy in vegetarians and vegans. Now, is the research rock solid? Not exactly....but the claim that its just "someone's idea" is by no means accurate:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12936945

"Current prospective cohort data from adults in North America and Europe raise the possibility that a lifestyle pattern that includes a very low meat intake is associated with greater longevity."

I would add that most studies that look at this find no difference between so called "semi-vegans" or "semi-vegetarians" and full vegans/vegetarians, that is, nothing magically happens when you cut out 100% of meat, etc instead its "very low meat intake" that is important (a very low isn't once a day...instead a few servings a month). But that should be expected.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 36,294,001 times
Reputation: 20198
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Going to a Japanese market in the US isn't going to tell you about meat consumption in Japan, the Japanese eat noticeably less pork and dramatically less beef than Americans.

When people think about foreign foods, they tend to look at the foreign foods available in the US but these are usually Americanized and that means they are made meat-heavy.

Regardless, the information about meat consumption by country is available, see here:

Daily chart: Kings of the carnivores | The Economist

As can be seen Americans top the charts, the Japanese eat around 1/3 as much as meat as Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick
Originally Posted by AnonChick When Gary Taubes studied and anylized all the studies done about diet, nutrition weight loss, etc and wrote the book Good Calories, Bad Calories


Gary Taubes by no means analyzed "all the studies", he selectively looked for studies that would paint the picture he wanted for his book. Gary Taubes is a writer, not a scientist, and the idea that he has figured out some big secret that has escape some of the best biologists, doctors, etc in the country is a bit funny...

Uh - I didn't post that. DontH8Me posted that. I don't use Gary Taubes as a credible source for anything, ever.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:47 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 36,294,001 times
Reputation: 20198
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Actually its based on observation....and observation that goes back thousands of years. You can find numerous studies that show greater life expectancy in vegetarians and vegans. Now, is the research rock solid? Not exactly....but the claim that its just "someone's idea" is by no means accurate:

Does low meat consumption increase life expec... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

"Current prospective cohort data from adults in North America and Europe raise the possibility that a lifestyle pattern that includes a very low meat intake is associated with greater longevity."

I would add that most studies that look at this find no difference between so called "semi-vegans" or "semi-vegetarians" and full vegans/vegetarians, that is, nothing magically happens when you cut out 100% of meat, etc instead its "very low meat intake" that is important (a very low isn't once a day...instead a few servings a month). But that should be expected.
Raise the possibility = isn't necessarily possible, but rather, it *might* be possible. Maybe. Kinda sorta. But maybe not, because there's no conclusive data. The jury is out. It's undecided, but we won't rule it out.

Very low meat intake = not vegetarian. Not vegan.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,418,232 times
Reputation: 4316
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
Raise the possibility = isn't necessarily possible, but rather, it *might* be possible. Maybe. Kinda sorta. But maybe not, because there's no conclusive data. The jury is out. It's undecided, but we won't rule it out.

Very low meat intake = not vegetarian. Not vegan.
There is a large body of evidence that shows that very low intakes of meat is associated with improved health outcomes. It isn't a "maybe", a "kinda sorta", the evidence is strong even though it isn't "conclusive", very little in nutritional science is conclusive. But I didn't say it was conclusive, instead I was pointing out that its not just some guys "ideas".

Vegetarians and vegans have, obviously, very low meat intakes and there are studies that look at vegetarians and vegans. I was pointing out that you see the same results with "semi-vegetarians" as well, so the key here is "very low meat intake" not vegetarianism per se.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
71,724 posts, read 83,345,493 times
Reputation: 41564
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
There is a large body of evidence that shows that very low intakes of meat is associated with improved health outcomes. It isn't a "maybe", a "kinda sorta", the evidence is strong even though it isn't "conclusive", very little in nutritional science is conclusive. But I didn't say it was conclusive, instead I was pointing out that its not just some guys "ideas".

Vegetarians and vegans have, obviously, very low meat intakes and there are studies that look at vegetarians and vegans. I was pointing out that you see the same results with "semi-vegetarians" as well, so the key here is "very low meat intake" not vegetarianism per se.
As most of us, even those in the medical field know, even scientific evidence isn't a proven. A lot of studies indicate thus and so. I am sure, combined with other good habits, a diet low in meat protein is healthier, but what people like you are forgetting, these studies are only suggestions and are still not proven. Most people who eat healthy also exercise more, many drink less alcohol, and have other favorable habits. The amount of meat red or otherwise they eat may or may not play a very small part in their life expectancy. I just hate studies that generalize. For those who want to live on a vegetarian or vegan diet, good for them. This is fine, but when they decide to try and convince the rest of the world to do the same or preach their way is the only right way, I have trouble.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:19 AM
 
7,104 posts, read 9,316,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
There is mounting evidence that it is insulin resistance which makes up the cause of most adult onset diabetes and that diabetes has little, if anything, to do with body weight other than diets which cause insulin resistance also tend to make people fat. Insulin resistance is the by-product of high levels of simple carbohydrate consumption. These carbs are generally in the form of sugar and simple starch components. Both of these are vegan sources of food. If the diet is high in these plant derivatives, a vegetarian or vegan diet can be just as bad or even worse than a fast food diet with respect to diabetes.

It CAN be but doesn't have to be. Just sayin'.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:22 AM
 
639 posts, read 937,403 times
Reputation: 711
There are actually high rates of diabetes type 2 in parts of India and Guyana, which is interesting because diabetes type 2 in those countries is not associated with body weight or diet. Environmental factors, such as exposure to persistent organic pollutants (which in studies have shown to be endocrine disruptors), along with genetic predisposition are thought to be the primary cause.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,151 posts, read 70,049,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
It seems these studies are proving nothing more than - there are more meat-eaters than there are vegetarians. So of course the incidence of Alzheimers will be higher among meat-eaters. Also, Dr. Barnard isn't an objective scientist. He is a biased anti-meat agenda pusher and in bed with PETA. So of -course- any studies he provides, will show the evils of meat. He won't show you any positives, because he doesn't want you to be tempted.

He has a very significant financial stake in his political activist agenda; he makes his living from it. For his lectures in Georgia, he's getting a percentage of a $575 *per person* fee for attending the weekend. And that doesn't include airfare, transfers, hotel, or food. It is JUST for the privilege of attending the lectures. And that's one weekend.

He makes more on a weekend telling people about how evil meat is, than most physicians make in a month of seeing patients. Of COURSE he is going to tell everyone about how evil it is. And if he can't tell the truth about it, he'll twist someone else's truth and turn it into a lie.

There are lots of valid reasons to not eat meat. But meat being a cause of Alzheimer's is not one of them.
Good post. Other clinical researchers into diet and the effect of carbs on the body advocate the opposite; a high protein diet that's relatively low in carbs of any kind balances blood sugar, restores insulin sensitivity and slows the aging process. Eliminating fat from the diet, including oils, is actually unhealthful and can be dangerous. The body needs healthy oils in order to function. Best is a diet of fish, fowl, occasional lean meats, low-fat dairy (the body needs calcium, HELLO!) and green veggies, as well as some beans and nuts.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:56 PM
Status: " la recherche d'un emploi" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,318 posts, read 21,881,897 times
Reputation: 23394
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Going to a Japanese market in the US isn't going to tell you about meat consumption in Japan, the Japanese eat noticeably less pork and dramatically less beef than Americans.

When people think about foreign foods, they tend to look at the foreign foods available in the US but these are usually Americanized and that means they are made meat-heavy.

Regardless, the information about meat consumption by country is available, see here:

Daily chart: Kings of the carnivores | The Economist

As can be seen Americans top the charts, the Japanese eat around 1/3 as much as meat as Americans.


Gary Taubes by no means analyzed "all the studies", he selectively looked for studies that would paint the picture he wanted for his book. Gary Taubes is a writer, not a scientist, and the idea that he has figured out some big secret that has escape some of the best biologists, doctors, etc in the country is a bit funny...
The point wasn't that Japanese eat less or more red meat, the point was, they eat red meat. Do you want to dispute that? No need to ask what your personal eating habits are. One of the cleanest jokes I know:

How can you tell who is a vegetarian/vegan at a party?

Don't worry - they will let you know.

If you don't like meat, don't eat it. But please stop trying to provide your twisted arguments to discourage others from their meat consumption. It's akin to the dihydrogen monoxide scare.

'It's got to be crispy': Woman, 105, says bacon key to longevity  - TODAY.com
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,418,232 times
Reputation: 4316
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
The point wasn't that Japanese eat less or more red meat, the point was, they eat red meat. Do you want to dispute that?
Dispute that they eat some red meat? No, after all, I just posted information on their red meat consumption. The Japanese aren't big red meat eaters, though they do eat some of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
If you don't like meat, don't eat it. But please stop trying to provide your twisted arguments to discourage others from their meat consumption.
What twisted arguments? But you do realize that you're posting in the vegetarian forum on a post about vegan/vegetarian diets right?
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