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Old 04-26-2013, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,399,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
From what I understand the losing weight usually only happens when you go full vegan. If you are still eating animal products (for some people) - even if they aren't eating meat, they may still gain weight with the carbs.
Why would eating dairy and eggs cause weight from carbohydrates? After all, both dairy and eggs contain significant amounts of fat which is more likely to result in weight gain than carbohydrates. In fact the conversion of carbohydrates into body fat is rather inefficient, you lose around 30% of the energy, as a result the conversion of carbohydrates into body fat is the last thing the body wants to do with carbohydrates (it wants to use them for immediate energy needs, and if not that then stored as glycogen).
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:15 AM
 
5,208 posts, read 5,117,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Yep, science changes, but just because some studies seem to conflict doesn't mean there isn't a strong consensus in the scientific community. Also, a factor in the case of nutrition is that often the food industry funds studies and they aren't always done with a "pure heart", they are done to get their products in the news in a positive light and the studies are engineered to do that.

Eggs, due to their high saturated fat and cholesterol content, are still an issue. Eggs have a decent amount of nutrients, but not more than a number of vegetables which don't come with all the saturated fat and cholesterol.

You went from there being "a lot o research" to not being able to recall a single article.... The American Heart Association and similar organizations all recommend limiting saturated fat due to its link to heart disease.

As for low carbohydrate diets, a low carbohydrate diet doesn't need to be rich in saturated fat...it doesn't even have to include meat. Low carbohydrate diets are used, by some, to help manage the symptoms of type 2 diabetes but these diets do little to resolve the underlying condition (insulin resistance). Its a bit like avoiding a car accident by not driving. Ironically, your fat intake (not carbohydrate intake) plays a big role in the development of insulin resistance so while low carbohydrate diets may help people manage their symptoms they may make the underlying problem worse...

Dietary fats and prevention of type 2 diabetes

As for vegetarian diets, "vegetarian" isn't a particular diet...it just means you don't eat meat. Since there are numerous unhealthy vegetarian foods, one shouldn't expect to get healthy by merely avoiding meat. With that said, vegetarians and vegans are likely to find it easier to follow a heart healthy diet because they've already removed some of the worse offenders. If someone feels poorly and gains weight on a vegetarian diet, the most likely reason for that is that the diet was poor and not well balanced.
I'm not sure why you cannot comment on something without having an attitude about it. I'm sorry that I do not recall the research that I read years ago. I should spend my entire day trying to remember where I read it. It's nice to assume that people in my household are idiotic and cannot determine what a healthy, well-balanced meal plan is, since it's not like that information is readily available. His problem wasn't so much that vegetarianism itself caused the weight gain but the fact that he ate more carbs while being vegetarian (brown rice, whole grains, fruits) that he doesn't eat now. Again, I am in the field, and yes, I am very cognizant of the people conducting the research but please, tell me more! I still stand by my point that right now, this has more benefits than risks to him and when that begins to change, then perhaps we will reevaluate his diet.

A strong consensus in the scientific community doesn't always mean anything. Science changes all of the time and what a majority will believe at one moment can radically change over the next ten years. I don't think there has been enough research regarding nutrition and I certainly don't believe that it has been done well enough to definitively say one way or another something is all or nothing. Based on the consensus about salt that seems to change every five minutes anyway, I should be nearly dead from high blood pressure with the amount of salt I eat and yet my BP is always on the low normal side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
We are all different. What is good for some of us may be bad for others. And then some people are outliers (unusual cases). I am always suspicious of broad, dogmatic statements. However, over the years of continually accumulating scientific research, there is a broad consensus that consumption of refined carbohydrates as well as saturated fats should be minimized, and that consumption of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, and whole grains should be encouraged.

Management of blood sugar levels by diabetics has been mentioned in this thread. That is certainly a dietary issue, but is also an exercise issue. Lipid panel results (cholesterol, triclycerides, LDL/HDL ratio) are perhaps as much affected by exercise as by diet. Therefore people who are looking at diet alone to manage any of these issues are leaving an extremely important tool (exercise) out of their toolbox.

Even here (exercise versus diet), individual differences should be expected. Some people may experience that diet is the more powerful factor, while for others it may be exercise. Broad dogmatic statements should arouse suspicions.
That is why I specifically stated that what works for him may not work for everyone else. I would never say that this lifestyle is for everyone because that's simply not true. I hope people read the NY Times article because I think that even though, yes we are genetically oh so similar, the smallest differences can have very big impacts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by missik999 View Post
A person could eat nothing but Reese's Cups three meals a day and technically be a vegetarian. So a vegetarian lifestyle isn't always health

A vegan diet would definitely be a healthier way of life.
I hope this is not really applicable to what I am talking about because my husband, even when vegetarian, rarely ate junk food. I'll admit that I do NOT eat well but he has incredible self-control and dedication. It's true that you can be completely unhealthy as a vegetarian but I am aware of what we ate during that time period because I was right there alongside him eating it, though I was still eating meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere View Post
cityliving,

I was not targeting or insulting your husband and I apologize if I came across that way. I was only making a general comment from my personal experience with other people. But you are correct, a particular eating habit can benefit one person, but not be so beneficial to another. Your husband should never feel bad that vegetarianism didn't work out for him. I've stated this in other threads, the true purpose of vegetarianism/veganism is to abstain from animal products due to the ethical issues of factory farming, not to be healthier. Although there are some doctors and diets suggesting that veganism can help those with cardiovascular disease (Esseltyn comes to mind).

The truth is nutrition is a young science, there is so much we are still unsure of. Too many studies contradicting one another which confuses the public. Too many biases. Too many scientists/doctors try to act like engineers when it comes to nutrition, thinking one particular diet is the fix for for obesity and the health issues that come with it. It's not that simple, the human body is complex, and genetics can play a huge role. You are right, some people are naturally bigger and will have a slower metabolism than another person.

I do agree with userid in that you have to be careful where you get your source of information, it is true that many "anti-carb" studies are funded by the dairy and meat industry.

Of course you should never take advice from a stranger online, but I am only giving my two cents. Since this paleo diet seems to be working for your husband, then I agree you should stick with it. But I would replace bacon and other processed meats with more wholesome meats like fresh turkey, chicken, and fish in moderation. I would also stick to healtier dairy products like Swiss cheese and plain yogurt. My background is in environmental medicine with a focus in nutrition and food safety, so I am very concerned about the chemical additives found in highly processed foods. Bacon, cold cuts, smoked salmon are cured with chemicals (don't mean to scare, but some of them are known carcinogens), and therefore should not be eaten everyday IMO.

I wish the best of luck to your husband and hope is new eating habits work.
ThinkingElsewhere,

Thank you for replying without the snarky tone. My husband DID want to be a vegetarian to abstain from animal products; however, even though he was eating well (I would say MUCH better than now), he gained weight and his cholesterol increased, which was surprising even to me. He was very upset that he had to start eating meat again because this was something he wanted to pursue but when you are medically "morbidly obese" you really have to consider what is the best thing for you and your body. And yes, he was doing this while still maintaining the same gym routine.

I also agree with you that there are too many studies contradicting one another. The studies I referenced from JAMA were not funded by the dairy and meat industry and some of the studies also discussed the benefits of other types of diets, so they were not one-sided. Like I stated earlier, I am also heavily involved in the medical/science field so I always look at who funded the study and where it took place after looking at the other obvious problems that seem to infiltrate many studies.

I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that all my husband does is eat bacon and processed meats. We eat turkey, chicken and fish regularly. He eats salad nearly everyday. He eats vegetables that are low in carbs. Most of these meals are made at home. He's not just standing around with fists full of bacon and cheese all of the time.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,399,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city living View Post
I'm sorry that I do not recall the research that I read years ago. I should spend my entire day trying to remember where I read it. It's nice to assume that people in my household are idiotic and cannot determine what a healthy, well-balanced meal plan is, since it's not like that information is readily available.
If you can't recall a single piece of research, perhaps you shouldn't claim that there is "a lot of research" that supports it? That is especially true when you're claiming something that is at odds with mainstream science, to say it again, the American Heart Association and all similar organizations recommend that one limits saturated fat intake to protect against heart disease.

I didn't call anybody an "idiot", I said that if one gained weight and felt poorly on a vegetarian diet its very likely that they were doing things wrong. Replacing some of the protein and fat in your diet with carbohydrates isn't going to result in weight gain, carbohydrates are much less likely to to be converted into body fat than dietary fat. But if someone already has a poor insulin response,they are going to need to watch the type of carbohydrates they eat. Eating a lot of grains, whole or refined, can be a problem in this case. Also, as I pointed out, a vegetarian diet doesn't need to be high in carbohydrates. So, if it was the carbohydrates, why was meat reintroduced? He could have reduced his carbohydrate intake while maintaining a vegetarian diet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by city living View Post
A strong consensus in the scientific community doesn't always mean anything. Science changes all of the time and what a majority will believe at one moment can radically change over the next ten years.
Outside of the consensus, what you have is opinion and conjecture so as for as science goes it means everything. And the consensus,by no means, changes "every five minutes". I think you are confusing studies for consensus, a single study doesn't mean much....but a large collection of studies over decades and widespread agreement in the scientific community does.

Its well known, and has been know for ages, that people differ in their sensitivity to salt. Yet there is a clear relationship between salt intake and higher blood pressure, the fact that some people never develop clinically high blood pressure with high salt intakes doesn't refute this relationship.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:58 AM
 
65 posts, read 129,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Why would eating dairy and eggs cause weight from carbohydrates? After all, both dairy and eggs contain significant amounts of fat which is more likely to result in weight gain than carbohydrates. In fact the conversion of carbohydrates into body fat is rather inefficient, you lose around 30% of the energy, as a result the conversion of carbohydrates into body fat is the last thing the body wants to do with carbohydrates (it wants to use them for immediate energy needs, and if not that then stored as glycogen).
The dairy and eggs don't cause the weight gain - and it doesn't cause weight gain for everyone. It's the combo of eating that along with the carbs that causes it for some people. At least that's what Dr. McDougall said. He promotes a starch-based diet with no meat/dairy/eggs/oils and people on that usually lose weight and reverse their diabetes. If they add animal products or oils the results aren't the same - don't ask me why as I'm not a doctor, just going by what he and others have said. It's kind of like when you are on a low carb diet and you start adding carbs you gain weight again. Something with the way the carbs and animal products interract with the body.

May I remind you this isn't the case with everyone. Some people like myself can eat animal products and carbs together and barely gain anything.

Also a poster below stated this too: "For the vast majority, when you put them on a low fat vegan style diet their cholesterol drops dramatically (usually < 150 total cholesterol). This can be seen in the clinical trials by Dean Ornish and Esselsytn and they were dealing with people with developed heart disease (e.g., a group that is likely to be predisposed to high cholesterol). Similarly, when you look at populations that consume a near vegan low fat diet (e.g., some Asian populations) their cholesterol levels are in the < 150 range as well. So the combination of clinical studies and epidemiological studies paints a pretty convincing picture, namely, that cholesterol levels are largely a matter of diet and a diet that is rich in whole grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits with minimal animal products (and as such, naturally low in fat) is very effective and lowering your cholesterol levels and more importantly, reducing your risk for cardiovascular disease."
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,399,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristyD View Post
The dairy and eggs don't cause the weight gain - and it doesn't cause weight gain for everyone. It's the combo of eating that along with the carbs that causes it for some people. At least that's what Dr. McDougall said.
That isn't what McDougall says and he has pointed, many times, to the fact that many low carbohydrate diet promoters are overweight. McDougall says "the fat you eat the is the fat you wear" so, according to him, eating dairy and eggs would promote weight gain because they are filled with fat. He doesn't really isolate his addition to animal fats either, he claims that any high fat diet will promote weight gain even if its vegetarian or vegan. That is why he suggests you avoid vegetable based oils.

The way you wording things, it seemed like you were blaming the weight gain on carbohydrates yet dietary fat can (and is more likely) to lead to increased body fat.
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Prospect, KY
5,288 posts, read 17,903,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
That isn't what McDougall says and he has pointed, many times, to the fact that many low carbohydrate diet promoters are overweight. McDougall says "the fat you eat the is the fat you wear" so, according to him, eating dairy and eggs would promote weight gain because they are filled with fat. He doesn't really isolate his addition to animal fats either, he claims that any high fat diet will promote weight gain even if its vegetarian or vegan. That is why he suggests you avoid vegetable based oils.

The way you wording things, it seemed like you were blaming the weight gain on carbohydrates yet dietary fat can (and is more likely) to lead to increased body fat.

I know this is true as my husband and I are living proof that eliminating animal fat, eating no additional oils or fats other than those naturally contained in the whole foods we eat (we also eat no sugar other than the sugar contained in fruit) - that this way of eating does help lower chosesterol and dramatically reduce weight. I cannot state this strongly enough - we do not need additional oils or fats in our diets - just eat a healthy diet filled with whole foods. I personally don't believe animal products are necessary in order to be healthy but I also think that small amounts of non-farmed, wild salmon and plain non-fat greek yogurt are also in line with a healthy diet.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Burbank, CA
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I'd love to remain a vegan but I get really thin and haven't quite got all the nutrition together to replace meat, fish or fowl yet. I'm not giving up. I eat chia every day along with spirulina and another forms of algae that may be the answer once I get up to taking enough. I find when I try new foods, I have to start with a little and then work on eating more and more so my body gets use to it.

I also found some really good heirloom beans (a mix of colors that you would not believe). These particular beans have a tremendous amount of nutrition in them. They are pricey but eating them in moderation is truly okay. I add them to lentils which works really well.

Aside from the above, I eat a large variety of nuts and seeds, along with a good source of the rice protein.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Prospect, KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Ihrig View Post
I'd love to remain a vegan but I get really thin and haven't quite got all the nutrition together to replace meat, fish or fowl yet. I'm not giving up. I eat chia every day along with spirulina and another forms of algae that may be the answer once I get up to taking enough. I find when I try new foods, I have to start with a little and then work on eating more and more so my body gets use to it.

I also found some really good heirloom beans (a mix of colors that you would not believe). These particular beans have a tremendous amount of nutrition in them. They are pricey but eating them in moderation is truly okay. I add them to lentils which works really well.

Aside from the above, I eat a large variety of nuts and seeds, along with a good source of the rice protein.
Hemp powder is a complete protein...we put it in our smoothies. Eat a wide varsity of beans and legumes. Tofu is high in protein. Quinoa and buckwheat are seeds but cook up and taste like a grain...both contain protein and are highly nutritious. Kashi is toasted buckwheat groats...sprinkle on oatmeal and mix it with your nuts and seeds. You can purchase most of this at Whole Foods in the bulk food dept....also can be ordered on line. Eat a wide range of organic greens....collared greens, bok choy , dandelion and radishes greens (organic), chard, spinach...kale has the highest nutrition of any green. Avocados and nuts...mix it up. Eat hydrated chi's and flax seed every day....nutritional yeast can be used in soups, stews and casseroles. Use organ cilantro or parsley and fresh green herbs in smoothies and in your food.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,399,172 times
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There is no need to seek out sources of "complete protein" on a vegan diet, you'll get plenty of protein eating a variety of whole foods. There is also no need to consume things like chia, spirulina, flax seed, isolated protein, etc. These are all expensive and don't add anything you can't get from a healthy mix of whole foods.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,998 posts, read 13,062,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
There is no need to seek out sources of "complete protein" on a vegan diet, you'll get plenty of protein eating a variety of whole foods. There is also no need to consume things like chia, spirulina, flax seed, isolated protein, etc. These are all expensive and don't add anything you can't get from a healthy mix of whole foods.





10 Vegan Sources of Protein

I don't understand this obsession with protein in vegetarian and vegan diets. Most Americans get TOO much protein.

J IHrig, I recommend: Becoming Vegan: The Complete Guide to Adopting a Healthy Plant-Based Diet by Brenda Davis - Powell's Books I own this one and it has a lot of great nutritional information.

Vegan for Life: Everything You Need to Know to Be Healthy and Fit on a Plant-Based Diet by Jack Norris - Powell's Books I checked this out from the library. It's a great beginners book. Becoming Vegan is more in-depth and gives you the science behind the recommendations. Vegan for Life is more a book for your "average" person who just wants to know what foods to eat for which mineral, vitamin, etc.


If you're an athlete or very active: http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780738212548-0
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