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Old 06-25-2013, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
This post is utterly disingenuous. Find some actual peer-reviewed medical literature that connects a vegan diet with any medical problems.
I thought everyone was aware of the recent study which made the mainstream news about veg'ans having increased risk of congestive heart failure and heart disease. There aren't many large scale studies, because the population is so small... 8/10 of 1% in the US according to the latest Gallup poll... but there are a number of reputable smaller studies about various issues with B-12 levels, sulfur levels, low cholesterol levels, etc. I strongly recommend that folks take a broad and open-minded view of all the available information for themselves, not just the ra-ra stuff, and form their own conclusions.

Quote:
Sure, it might be wise to take Vitamin B-12 synthesized from male urine which is how it's obtained but that's about it.
I have no idea where you got that idea. B-12 for supplements is actually manufactured by bacterial action during fermentation of carbohydrates, and it's more than just a good idea for vegans to take supplements or eat fortified foods, it's essential for long term health.

Here's what The Vegan Society has to say on the subject:

Quote:
The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms.

Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anaemia and nervous system damage, but many do not get enough to minimise potential risk of heart disease or pregnancy complications.

To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:

* eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (μg or mcg) of B12 a day or
* take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms or
* take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.

Vitamin B12 - The Vegan Society
And of course today we know that a key reason Gandhi recovered from his weakness and other health issues whenever he resumed drinking goat milk on a daily basis is that it contains natural B-12. Ruminant animals such as cows and goats naturally harbor these bacteria in their digestive systems, and that B-12 winds up in their milk. Hence the widespread traditional understanding of vegetarianism that it include dairy.

Quote:
I admit that I'm not vegan but I have the highest admiration for those who are. Stop trying to make virtues out of failings.
I'm not doing that at all. I'll say it again... if a veg'an diet works for you, DO IT! But if it doesn't, don't beat yourself up over it. You're not a bad person if your body doesn't work well when eating that way.

After decades of personally dealing with my own health issues, and those of my former partner, who was a committed vegan long before I was, I'm maybe more aware than most of the potential downsides, and of the culture of denial around those possible negative outcomes. I think folks should be fully informed, that's all.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,998 posts, read 13,068,752 times
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A great example of people with WAY too much time on their hands.

As many people have said, this just turns people off to veganism.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,407,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
There absolutely is. Anyone can Google "vegan failure to thrive" or "vegan disease" and find thousands of articles and studies and personal accounts about health issues people have had with even well-planned vegan diets and expert advice.
No, there really isn't. Personal anecdotes don't tell you anything. I've seen so called "failures to thrive" in person, in each case the people had poorly planned diets. How to craft a healthy well-planned vegan diet isn't straight-forward and there is a lot of misinformation out there. And then there are the social issues, and the power of suggestion is strong....

There are numerous studies on plant-based diets, in a clinical setting you don't see people getting sick from vegan diets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Gandhi himself tried to follow a vegan diet a number of times, but he always went back to consuming dairy after he developed health issues.
So what? Gandhi was a religious leader, not a nutritionist. Indians have thousands of years of experience with how to craft well-balanced vegetarian diets, where as they have no experience of how to craft well-balanced vegan diets. Gandhi, like anybody else, wouldn't automatically know how to craft a well-balanced vegan diet....and obviously he failed to do so and that shouldn't be surprising.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
All I'm saying is that if a vegan diet works for someone, I totally support it. But if it doesn't.... and for many it doesn't... then I totally support them finding a diet which does work.
I'm interested in the actual science, not what people think "works for them". From the high number of fat and sick people in the US, I reckon most people have a bad idea of what "works for them".
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,385 posts, read 37,689,162 times
Reputation: 22518
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
The whole idea is repulsive, and an example of how to turn people off to the vegan message.

First and foremost, one's privacy AND one's freedom to choose is compromised by this kind of mindless peer pressure. Nobody needs to justify themselves in this arena, especially not to the perhaps 8/10 of 1% of the public which is vegan.

Second, this kind of thing overlooks the very inconvenient truth that due to body type and other physical considerations, perhaps a third of the people attempting a vegan diet wind up abandoning it for health reasons. Not everyone CAN be a vegan.

If you have a fervent believe that something is good, and you want others to join you in that belief, stick to attracting people with what you see is positive about your viewpoint, rather than trying to shame them if they don't agree.
Very well said. I happen to be one of those people whose body simply doesn't do well on the most balanced vegetarian (never mind vegan) diet - get sick as a dog if I do it for any extended period of time at all. Learned that the hard way, twice, in fact, before I learned to listen to my body about what works for it and not other people about what SHOULD work for me. My late best friend was a vegetarian, and she did quite well on a vegetarian diet. (It was ovarian cancer that got her, and it had a very heavy genetic component as every member of her family, including a two-year-old niece, died of one form of cancer or another. Nothing to do with her diet.) Vastly different genetics at work. Fortunately, we didn't think anything of it as far as what the other one ate, except for making sure that there was something for the other to eat if they came to visit.

As far as the list is concerned, I agree that it's very likely to push people away from vegetarianism rather than drawing them to it. No one reacts well to a club or to attempts to shame them in that way. If vegetarianism is so great, far better to extoll the real and accurate virtues of it while at the same time being open to the fact that not everyone is just like you or will agree with you. More flies with honey than with vinegar, in other words.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:55 PM
 
3,455 posts, read 2,293,463 times
Reputation: 6992
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22 View Post
For example, a former friend who actually is a physician assistant said he stopped being a vegetarian because a doctor told him that he could become diabetic by being a vegetarian and getting too many carbs (like that the pancreas can only make so much insulin a lifetime)---which is so contrary to diabetes being lessened/reversed by a veggie diet.
I know this is an old thread, but I had to laugh out loud at what that idiot doctor said. And the PA believed him or her! Sure, if your carb intake consists of cookies, cakes and candy and other highly-processed carbs, you can increase your risk of diabetes. But a well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet, incorporating foods with lots of fiber, whole grains, etc., will actually have beneficial effects on your glycemic control and your cardiovascular health. And the idea that your "pancreas can only make so much insulin [in] a lifetime" is another nutty idea. Yep, you can beat-up your pancreatic beta cells by becoming obese and having high blood sugar and eventually, the pancreas will not be able to keep up. But the pancreas is perfectly capable of producing insulin for a lifetime, with the right diet and (and this important) the right genetics.

Source: I am both a nurse practitioner and an educator. I teach the pathophysiology of diabetes at the undergrad and grad level. I keep up with the latest research on diabetes.
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:10 PM
 
2,056 posts, read 2,449,688 times
Reputation: 3799
I agree, what other people eat is no one's business, but I do try to set an example. If someone asks about my diet, and it is unavoidable most of the time, I give my reasons and let it go. Just that little conversation may plant a seed if someone has been thinking about this.

I understand that some people have problems going to a vegetarian diet, so they MAY have to supplement w/ some fish or something in the beginning, but it is really a matter of acclimating one's body to another diet. That takes time, and there are so many wonderful vegetarian and vegan products out today, and so much scientific nutritional information, that I do not think anyone on earth cannot adapt to a vegetarian diet if they are going about it the right way. As I said, it may just take a long time. No one can ever convince me that killing an animal and eating it is necessary for a human to live. It just isn't so. We are definitely omnivorous, not carnivorous. Any doctor that said diabetics cannot thrive on the CORRECT vegetarian diet should be sued for malpractice.
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:37 AM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,875,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino View Post
I agree, what other people eat is no one's business
I just don't understand this arbitrary special status that food receives. If someone was killing and eating children, would you say "It's no one's business what food a person eats"? Of course not, because killing children for no good reason is wrong. Then why is it off limits if they are immorally killing animals? The difference is a matter of degree, not of kind.

I'm not saying that it is prudent or useful to browbeat people when they eat meat. I agree, that doesn't win many converts. I do not agree, however, that it is no one else's business what a person chooses to eat. There are many ways a person can behave immorally when he or she sits down to eat, and immoral action is the business of all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
I thought everyone was aware of the recent study which made the mainstream news about veg'ans having increased risk of congestive heart failure and heart disease.
I know this is an old post, but do you have a link for this? I've searched and cannot find it. In fact, everything I've found indicates the opposite.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:30 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,905 posts, read 8,619,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino View Post
I understand that some people have problems going to a vegetarian diet, so they MAY have to supplement w/ some fish or something in the beginning, but it is really a matter of acclimating one's body to another diet.
Let's be careful here: A study from Saarland University Hospital, Homburg, Germany, using a very sensitive methodology designed to avoid false positives associated with how certain supplements mask the true state of deficiency, found that 83% of vegans are B12 deficient. Even though eggs and dairy provide some B12 as well, 68% of vegetarians are B12 deficient. (Compare that to 5% of omnivores.) So it seems unlikely that this is just a matter of acclimating to a new diet.

Our bodies weren't made to be vegan. While we may eventually evolve (back?) in that direction, the ability to be vegan and healthy is a product of relatively modern technology, and success as a vegan depends greatly on the discipline one practices toward B12 supplementation, the quality of the alternative B12 sources used, and one's body's capacity to absorb B12 in vegan forms.

That 68% number for vegetarians indicates that this is not just a vegan problem. It seems clear that some vegetarians relying on cheese and eggs to deal with this requirement are simply not metabolizing enough of the vitamin, delivered that way. I know from personal experience that even with a healthy vegetarian diet plus B12 supplementation, B12 deficiency is still possible.

So no, it isn't just a matter of acclimating to another diet. Some people will need to make the commitment to very intense and continual monitoring to remain veg*an and healthy. And the human body is such that there might be, among the seven million bodies, at least one or two that simply cannot metabolize enough alternative sources of B12 to thrive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino View Post
No one can ever convince me that killing an animal and eating it is necessary for a human to live.
I worry about all categorical statements. Some omnivores "die anyway". With veg*anism, just considering this one essential vitamin with regard to which the human body is sometimes so persnickety, nothing is ever 100%. Having said that, I think your categorical statement is almost always true as written. However, it is important to note that your statement is a vegetarian statement not a vegan statement. I'm not quite so sure that we could prove even "almost always" for a vegan version of your statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino View Post
Any doctor that said diabetics cannot thrive on the CORRECT vegetarian diet should be sued for malpractice.
Indeed, and mainly because that is a categorical statement, just like the one you made above. Neither extreme can be adequately defended, neither the statement that no diabetics can thrive on a vegetarian diet, nor the statement that all diabetics can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Most diabetics can. Maybe even "almost all". But we just cannot prove "all" nor "none".

And in the end, that's the whole point of my posting: We don't want people to make unsubstantiable (negative) categorical claims about veg*anism, so we shouldn't make unsubstantiable (positive) categorical claims about veg*anism.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:22 AM
 
1,884 posts, read 4,107,606 times
Reputation: 2660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
I just don't understand this arbitrary special status that food receives. If someone was killing and eating children, would you say "It's no one's business what food a person eats"? Of course not, because killing children for no good reason is wrong. Then why is it off limits if they are immorally killing animals? The difference is a matter of degree, not of kind.

I'm not saying that it is prudent or useful to browbeat people when they eat meat. I agree, that doesn't win many converts. I do not agree, however, that it is no one else's business what a person chooses to eat. There are many ways a person can behave immorally when he or she sits down to eat, and immoral action is the business of all.




I know this is an old post, but do you have a link for this? I've searched and cannot find it. In fact, everything I've found indicates the opposite.


How can you compare children to animals? Is it based on the fact that they are both living creatures?


Immoral is not illegal, and what you consider immoral and what I consider immoral may be two different things. I think it's immoral to treat animals better than humans. I know some think the opposite. That's their business and there is no reason I should make it mine......until it becomes illegal.


Food is a VERY touchy subject, no different than religion or politics. People tend to think that everyone else should think like they do. Everyone has an opinion, it's their right.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:29 AM
 
1,884 posts, read 4,107,606 times
Reputation: 2660
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Outside of some rare genetic disorders, there is no reason to believe this. The real truth, and its pretty convenient, is that people abandon vegan diets because social pressure and health issues that result in a poorly planned vegan diet. Most people that "go vegan" don't have a good grasp on the nutritional issues and the vegan movement has done a very poor job at educating people, instead they focus on horrifying people into a vegan lifestyle.

As for the ex-vegan thing, it gets tiresome because many ex-vegans make ridiculous claims. The other reason vegans make a big deal out of it is that these are people that know the details of what happens in meat production...and yet they go back to supporting it. As such ex-vegans are viewed differently than someone that eats meats but is ignorant of what happens in meat production.

How many vegan's/vegetarians actually know the details of meat production, other than what the media tells/shows them? I honestly would like to know how many have personally visited a farm to get the actual facts. Your quote, "it gets tiresome because many ex-vegans make ridiculous claims". I agree on the "other side". It gets tiresome because many people make ridiculous claims about farmers and meat production.
Just wanted to show another POV.
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