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Old 12-26-2013, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Idaho/Wyoming
584 posts, read 446,700 times
Reputation: 1423

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Keep in mind that "free range" is meaningless in terms of assuring the well being of laying hens. All it means is that they have access to an outdoor area for an unspecified length of time. There are plenty of producers who take full advantage of loopholes like this. They know that there is a market for "compassionate" animal products and if people think they are buying products from animals who were treated better, they're willing to pay more. "Humane certified" products are generally certified by private industry groups who can and do use legal loopholes and manipulation quite readily. They often use standard industry practices as the basis for determining what is humane.

Hens can be crammed into a barn by the thousands and if there is a cat door type opening that is open for 5 minutes a day, the eggs can legally be labeled free range. Some of the hens may not even be able to get to the door or realize it's there, but it's still legally considered "access" and "free range" and the eggs can be labeled as such. De-beaking is completely acceptable and widely practiced on so-called free range egg farms, too.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:17 PM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
33,077 posts, read 41,382,174 times
Reputation: 54299
It seems to me, by the various responses, that vegans and vegetarians tend to live in world of constant angst. It almost seems like a disorder in which they think they are the cure for all suffering. It seems like a burdensome way to live.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Idaho/Wyoming
584 posts, read 446,700 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
It seems to me, by the various responses, that vegans and vegetarians tend to live in world of constant angst. It almost seems like a disorder in which they think they are the cure for all suffering. It seems like a burdensome way to live.
Huh? Not at all. I don't know any vegan who is under the illusion that it's even possible to exist without being the cause of some form of suffering. But trying to minimize that suffering and not consuming animals is in no way a burden. It's actually quite liberating. I think maintaining a level of cognitive dissonance that is required to justify consuming them, while pretending it's humane would be far more burdensome.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:16 AM
 
6,925 posts, read 9,134,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
I had a nice conversation with a vegan yesterday, and I can understand the possible benefits of going that way, but what is the reason for abstaining from dairy and eggs? Is it the fear of what the cows and hens have been fed, or is it something else?
I know I could not go vegetarian without some cheese or yogurt.
Plain and simple: Because my heart doctor told me not to. I listen to him or risk dying in a gutter unless Roto Rooter can get there in five minutes and ream me out.

For me the other issues brought forth here are not something I have to think about. Easy.
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:43 AM
 
Location: somewhere flat
1,276 posts, read 1,067,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
It seems to me, by the various responses, that vegans and vegetarians tend to live in world of constant angst. It almost seems like a disorder in which they think they are the cure for all suffering. It seems like a burdensome way to live.

There is lots of burden involved when you know that animals are being tortured every day. Anyone who loves animals feels that way. Or should. No...DOES.

We eat good food and have good times eating with others.

Vegans do not enjoy taking the innards out of a turkey, hunting, making a "traducken" - man that had to be the most disgusting food I ever heard of - right up there with haggis.

So actually the guilt that we do not have over our personal involvement about animal suffering, coupled with the fact that many of us are or know, compassionate and accomplished chefs, makes our lives pretty happy and at least free of the burden that meat eaters feel.

We are a happy lot, for the most part. If anyone wants to worry, worry about the poor animals.
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Old 12-29-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: The 719
13,013 posts, read 21,042,788 times
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To you vegans and vegetarians, if not eggs and other dairy, then what?

What are your favorite equivalents/alternatives?
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:37 PM
 
Location: The 719
13,013 posts, read 21,042,788 times
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Maybe there isn't an equivalent.

So what about cholesterol? Do we need it? The brain is made of it. Maybe we need some form of it. I thought that coconut oil I bought had it, but no.

I've been reading this book called Grain Brain: The surprising truth about wheat, carbs, and sugar-Your brain's silent killers.

The book talks about how grain, carbs, and even too much of certain kinds of fruit can be creating what the author calls Type-3 diabetes ... or eventually dementia or even Alzheimer's.

Well anyways, if you had to eat some form of animal to get this cholesterol, what could be better than an egg or maybe smoked wild-caught salmon?
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:54 PM
 
2,565 posts, read 463,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
Maybe there isn't an equivalent.

So what about cholesterol? Do we need it? The brain is made of it. Maybe we need some form of it. I thought that coconut oil I bought had it, but no.

I've been reading this book called Grain Brain: The surprising truth about wheat, carbs, and sugar-Your brain's silent killers.

The book talks about how grain, carbs, and even too much of certain kinds of fruit can be creating what the author calls Type-3 diabetes ... or eventually dementia or even Alzheimer's.

Well anyways, if you had to eat some form of animal to get this cholesterol, what could be better than an egg or maybe smoked wild-caught salmon?
While I don't like the suggestion of eating salmon on a vegetarian forum, I do think you aren't just trolling on this forum to get a reaction. So I will answer your question.

Absolutely our bodies need cholesterol to function. But according to sources like Harvard University:

Understanding Cholesterol: The Good, the Bad, and the Necessary - Harvard Health Publications

It says that your body makes cholesterol even if you have a cholesterol-free diet:

"Cholesterol is so important to the body that it makes it itself—Mother Nature doesn't leave it up to humans to get whatever they need from diet alone. So even if you ate a completely cholesterol-free diet, your body would make the approximately 1,000 mg it needs to function properly. Your body has the ability to regulate the amount of cholesterol in the blood, producing more when your diet doesn't provide adequate amounts. The regulation of cholesterol synthesis is an elegant process that is tightly controlled.

Your body does need food to fuel the cholesterol production process, but it can be virtually any kind of food, even the cholesterol-free kind. As long as the food contains carbon—which carbohydrates, fats, and proteins all do—it provides the body with the building blocks to make its own cholesterol. Cholesterol is made out of the carbon that is recycled from the food you eat. Saturated fats, however, raise blood cholesterol levels more than other types of food, which is why people watching their cholesterol are told to avoid them. This is true even if saturated fat (which doesn't have any cholesterol in itself but is often found in foods with high cholesterol) is eaten in a cholesterol-free food. Why saturated fat does this is still something of a biological mystery."

And salmon actually lowers cholesterol because of the healthy omega 3's (which I get from algae).

I hope this helps...and that if people choose to eat animal flesh/products, it's because you enjoy eating them and not because you think you are helping your body obtain necessary cholesterol.

Now...back to discussing plant based food....
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:58 PM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
33,077 posts, read 41,382,174 times
Reputation: 54299
I just saw a show about juicing, which was very compelling, and then there was a newspaper article the other day about the local owner of an organic farm which does its own humane slaughtering (whatever that is), and the wife cried every time they killed the animals.

So many reasons to give up meat, but old dietary habits die hard. If I were a person who ate out a lot I could easily choose meatless, but I would not even begin to know how to cook vegetarian for the long haul.

Did y'all see the show (History channel) about the Australian man who was overweight and had an auto immune disease, who came to the US, travelled around, and went for 60 days on a juicing fast (fruits and veggies). He wound up a healthy weight and medication and symptom free. In his travels, he met a 400+# truck driver with the same disease. He told the truck driver to contact him if he wanted to try the juicing fast to conquer his obesity and autoimmune disease. The truck driver called, he became a disciple, lost 91#, and now is a spokesman for the juicing movement, too.

I get it, vegans, but I might be too old to change.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:05 PM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
33,077 posts, read 41,382,174 times
Reputation: 54299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22 View Post
While I don't like the suggestion of eating salmon on a vegetarian forum, I do think you aren't just trolling on this forum to get a reaction. So I will answer your question.

Absolutely our bodies need cholesterol to function. But according to sources like Harvard University:

Understanding Cholesterol: The Good, the Bad, and the Necessary - Harvard Health Publications

It says that your body makes cholesterol even if you have a cholesterol-free diet:

"Cholesterol is so important to the body that it makes it itself—Mother Nature doesn't leave it up to humans to get whatever they need from diet alone. So even if you ate a completely cholesterol-free diet, your body would make the approximately 1,000 mg it needs to function properly. Your body has the ability to regulate the amount of cholesterol in the blood, producing more when your diet doesn't provide adequate amounts. The regulation of cholesterol synthesis is an elegant process that is tightly controlled.

Your body does need food to fuel the cholesterol production process, but it can be virtually any kind of food, even the cholesterol-free kind. As long as the food contains carbon—which carbohydrates, fats, and proteins all do—it provides the body with the building blocks to make its own cholesterol. Cholesterol is made out of the carbon that is recycled from the food you eat. Saturated fats, however, raise blood cholesterol levels more than other types of food, which is why people watching their cholesterol are told to avoid them. This is true even if saturated fat (which doesn't have any cholesterol in itself but is often found in foods with high cholesterol) is eaten in a cholesterol-free food. Why saturated fat does this is still something of a biological mystery."

And salmon actually lowers cholesterol because of the healthy omega 3's (which I get from algae).

I hope this helps...and that if people choose to eat animal flesh/products, it's because you enjoy eating them and not because you think you are helping your body obtain necessary cholesterol.

Now...back to discussing plant based food....
My understanding about cholesterol is that unless you picked the right parents you are doomed. My grandparents lived on butter, coffee with cream, and cigarettes, yet I have my doctor's best cholesterol level for my age of anyone else. My heritage is Swedish/English.
My husband is of English heritage, too, yet he takes a pill for cholesterol. It's a crap shoot.
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