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Old 09-27-2008, 03:27 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
So basically in an effort to justify your hunting rights, you deem it okay to allow cruelty to animals? Seriously, do you think that cruelty is okay? That's all you're telling me. Allow people to be cruel to animals so that my hunting rights aren't taken away?

Read up on facts regarding cruelty. Every single serial killer began with animal cruelty. You won't find a single one that didn't. But oh dear God, don't take my hunting rights away, scream those who haven't a clue.
You're not making any sense. I never did say cruelty to animals is okay. You read into my post what you wanted to hear. I pointed out that one thing the HSUS considers cruelty is not cruelty.
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
You're not making any sense. I never did say cruelty to animals is okay. You read into my post what you wanted to hear. I pointed out that one thing the HSUS considers cruelty is not cruelty.

One of us sure isn't making sense.

Congress Takes Aim at Animal Trafficking to Stop Wildlife Penning (http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/news/wildlife_penning_ban_bill_introduced_congress_0923 08.html - broken link)

"The grisly practice of trapping and selling animals to be used as 'live bait' in fenced enclosures is not only inhumane, but also could spread diseases across state lines,"

Yes, that's inhumane. Very inhumane.


Vice President Dick Cheney went pheasant shooting in Pennsylvania in December 2003, but unlike most of his fellow hunters across America, he didn't have to spend hours or even days tramping the fields and hedgerows in hopes of bagging a brace of birds for the dinner table.

Upon his arrival at the exclusive Rolling Rock Club in Ligonier Township, gamekeepers released 500 pen-raised pheasants from nets for the benefit of him and his party. In a blaze of gunfire, the group—which included legendary Dallas Cowboys quarterback Roger Staubach and U.S. Senator John Cornyn (R-TX), along with major fundraisers for Republican candidates—killed at least 417 of the birds.

Cheney's Canned Kill, and Other Hunting Excesses of the Bush Administration | The Humane Society of the United States (http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/wayne_pacelle_the_animal_advocate/cheneys_canned_kill_and_other_hunting_excesses_of_ the_bush_administration.html - broken link)

Yes, that's inhumane.


Wikipedia on Cruelty to Animals
Cruelty to animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Cruelty is the deliberate act of inflicting pain and torture on a human or animal.

If you're a responsible hunter, you shoot to kill. You do not take the animal and maim or torture it.

There is a difference between capturing animals to kill them and hunting responsibly. It blows me away that some of you justify ignoring the HSUS because they oppose hunting and yet you condone cruelty? That's all that's being said here. It makes NO sense.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:00 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
One of us sure isn't making sense.

Congress Takes Aim at Animal Trafficking to Stop Wildlife Penning (http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/news/wildlife_penning_ban_bill_introduced_congress_0923 08.html - broken link)

"The grisly practice of trapping and selling animals to be used as 'live bait' in fenced enclosures is not only inhumane, but also could spread diseases across state lines,"

Yes, that's inhumane. Very inhumane.
Making animals fight each other is cruel I'll not deny that. Although I've seen pretty nasty fights between animals in the wild, over territory, mating, etc., but nonetheless I don't condone **** fighting and similar activities. Relocating live animals is already prohibited in many states, including my home state of VT, because it spreads diseases. It is only allowed by special permit for legitimate reasons (reintroduction of species, etc.). Of course the ffect of that is that the popular practice by people who have nuissance animals around their property but who don't want to kill animals, catch them and relocate with a cage trap, they have committed a crime.

I will point out that the HSUS was quite incorrect when they stated:
Quote:
The appalling practice of wildlife penning begins when wildlife are caught in the steel jaws of a leghold trap and suffer excruciating pain.
Total BS, foothold traps don't cause excruciating pain. Come along on my trapline someday this winter and see the truth. Foothold traps were used to reintroduce wolves and other animals into areas they were extirpated from. Trappers were hired to catch them with foothold traps for the purpose of relocation.



Quote:
Vice President Dick Cheney went pheasant shooting in Pennsylvania in December 2003, but unlike most of his fellow hunters across America, he didn't have to spend hours or even days tramping the fields and hedgerows in hopes of bagging a brace of birds for the dinner table.

Upon his arrival at the exclusive Rolling Rock Club in Ligonier Township, gamekeepers released 500 pen-raised pheasants from nets for the benefit of him and his party. In a blaze of gunfire, the group—which included legendary Dallas Cowboys quarterback Roger Staubach and U.S. Senator John Cornyn (R-TX), along with major fundraisers for Republican candidates—killed at least 417 of the birds.

Cheney's Canned Kill, and Other Hunting Excesses of the Bush Administration | The Humane Society of the United States (http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/wayne_pacelle_the_animal_advocate/cheneys_canned_kill_and_other_hunting_excesses_of_ the_bush_administration.html - broken link)

Yes, that's inhumane.
True hunting no, inhumane, well that depends on how the birds were raised and treated. More like a slow process of killing livestock than true hunting.





Quote:
Cruelty is the deliberate act of inflicting pain and torture on a human or animal.

If you're a responsible hunter, you shoot to kill. You do not take the animal and maim or torture it.

There is a difference between capturing animals to kill them and hunting responsibly. It blows me away that some of you justify ignoring the HSUS because they oppose hunting and yet you condone cruelty? That's all that's being said here. It makes NO sense.
You see, I don't condone cruelty, but I'm not going to support any radical groups like PETA, HSUS, ALF, etc. because they are irrational and want to do things I have serious problems with. Their extremism is what turns people like myself off of them even if they do some good things. Some of what they consider cruel isn't in fact, other things clearly are. I'd rather support a more rational, logical conservation group that will both look out for animal welfare and not irrationally ban hunting, than some animal rights group like PETA or HSUS. If I were a vegetarian I'd keep a big distance between myself and these groups for that very reason. Many people associate all vegetarians and such with the antics of PETA. Is that what you want?
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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To not support certain aspects of an organization does not mean you ban the organization altogether. At least not in my opinion. PETA is way too extremist. HSUS is not. They recognize that to ban all hunting may be something they want, but is not feasible for most and will probably not happen in our lifetime.

But for anyone to say they don't support HSUS for just that reason (responsible hunting for food on the table), while overlooking all of the good that they do, makes no sense to me.

Again, I turn the other cheek when someone tells me they're going hunting, if and only if, they are bringing it home for dinner. I do not consider trophy hunting a sport. I consider that inhumane and worse.

Further, I don't believe that you can compare wild animals who fight each other in the wild, to that of humans who make the animals fight. What nature does, and what man does for this sick thrills are not one in the same.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
To not support certain aspects of an organization does not mean you ban the organization altogether. At least not in my opinion. PETA is way too extremist. HSUS is not. They recognize that to ban all hunting may be something they want, but is not feasible for most and will probably not happen in our lifetime.

But for anyone to say they don't support HSUS for just that reason (responsible hunting for food on the table), while overlooking all of the good that they do, makes no sense to me.

Again, I turn the other cheek when someone tells me they're going hunting, if and only if, they are bringing it home for dinner. I do not consider trophy hunting a sport. I consider that inhumane and worse.
You see, I'm simply not going to support any group whose goal is to ban an important part of both my lifestyle, and something humans were meant to do (as humans were original hunter-gatherers). There are better groups out there.

Quote:
Further, I don't believe that you can compare wild animals who fight each other in the wild, to that of humans who make the animals fight. What nature does, and what man does for this sick thrills are not one in the same.
No, animals fighting each other in nature is more comparable to human wars, while humans pitting them against each other for sport is more like the old Roman colloseums. My only point was that while it's a disgusting practice, some seemingly pretty nasty stuff happens everyday in nature. Seems like many living things are prone to being cruel for cruelty's sake. Humans, cats, wolves, etc.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
You see, I'm simply not going to support any group whose goal is to ban an important part of both my lifestyle, and something humans were meant to do (as humans were original hunter-gatherers). There are better groups out there.


No, animals fighting each other in nature is more comparable to human wars, while humans pitting them against each other for sport is more like the old Roman colloseums. My only point was that while it's a disgusting practice, some seemingly pretty nasty stuff happens everyday in nature. Seems like many living things are prone to being cruel for cruelty's sake. Humans, cats, wolves, etc.
Animals are not cruel for cruelty's sake. They fight when threatened and fight for food. They don't fight to be cruel.

I hope when you hunt as part of your lifestyle, it's for food and it's done responsibly.
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Old 09-27-2008, 06:00 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Animals are not cruel for cruelty's sake. They fight when threatened and fight for food. They don't fight to be cruel.

I hope when you hunt as part of your lifestyle, it's for food and it's done responsibly.
Cats, wild and domestic, love to "play" with (actually torture) their food (if they eat it, sometimes they kill things and don't eat what they kill). Wolves will kill something, then go and kill something else, never eating anything they killed, or maybe just nibbling at it before killing something else. Wolves will hunt just for the sake of killing. They enjoy it. Now, most animals are not like these examples, but it does go to show there are animals like this.
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Old 09-27-2008, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Cats, wild and domestic, love to "play" with (actually torture) their food (if they eat it, sometimes they kill things and don't eat what they kill). Wolves will kill something, then go and kill something else, never eating anything they killed, or maybe just nibbling at it before killing something else. Wolves will hunt just for the sake of killing. They enjoy it. Now, most animals are not like these examples, but it does go to show there are animals like this.

Arctickhomesteader, clearly you are out of touch with the animal kingdom. I would suggest that you read up on it, real reading, not tabloids.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:22 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Arctickhomesteader, clearly you are out of touch with the animal kingdom. I would suggest that you read up on it, real reading, not tabloids.
I know things from experience, mine and experiences explained to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's witnessed a cat torturing its prey. Including wild bobcats. Chat with some bush residents in Alaska about what the wolves do. They do in fact do what I said.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:31 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,935 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9019
For some pics of what I'm talking about, watch the bottommost video: Alaskans for Professional Wildlife Management
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