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Old 09-28-2008, 07:42 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,183,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Lilybeans to planet earth please. Come in?
Huh? You have some sort of proof that animals don't kill for sport or pleasure?
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilybeans View Post
Huh? You have some sort of proof that animals don't kill for sport or pleasure?
I'll throw that one back on you. Do you have proof that they do?
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Old 09-28-2008, 10:31 AM
 
1,884 posts, read 4,107,865 times
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Ghost and the darkness. Happened in what is now called Kenya.

I've seen it many times w/my dog. If the cat or rabbit runs, the dog will kill it and not eat it.

I don't know if the "ghost and the darkness" is 100% true, you know how those things can "develop". I also can't read my dogs mind, but she has had cats sleep on top of her.......but they better not run.

Interesting thread, good reading.
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Old 09-28-2008, 10:35 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,183,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
We have studied it. Google a search. Animals can be highly intelligent, they can not reason. Wolves do not kill for the thrill.
This is your statement, not mine. I asked you what proof there is that they do not reason? I would say there is no definitive answer, because none of us can get in the mind of an animal.

Can gorillas reason? Sure seems like it. Chimps? probably. Dolphins-no doubt in my mind at all. Dogs-you would have a hard time convincing me they don't reason. Animals paly fo the sheer fun of it. That sounds like a good reason to play.

Until I get proof that they don't reason. I'll assume they do.
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilybeans View Post
This is your statement, not mine. I asked you what proof there is that they do not reason? I would say there is no definitive answer, because none of us can get in the mind of an animal.

Can gorillas reason? Sure seems like it. Chimps? probably. Dolphins-no doubt in my mind at all. Dogs-you would have a hard time convincing me they don't reason. Animals paly fo the sheer fun of it. That sounds like a good reason to play.

Until I get proof that they don't reason. I'll assume they do.
Sure okay, be a total fool. That's a choice I'll let you make alone.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:01 PM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,183,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Sure okay, be a total fool. That's a choice I'll let you make alone.
I guess that means you can't prove your statement. Thanks for the confirmation.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,442,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilybeans View Post
I guess that means you can't prove your statement. Thanks for the confirmation.
No, it means I didn't try. Why should I do your homework?

But, I could say the same for you, so thank you too for the confirmation.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:01 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,850,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilybeans View Post
This is your statement, not mine. I asked you what proof there is that they do not reason? I would say there is no definitive answer, because none of us can get in the mind of an animal.

Can gorillas reason? Sure seems like it. Chimps? probably. Dolphins-no doubt in my mind at all. Dogs-you would have a hard time convincing me they don't reason. Animals paly fo the sheer fun of it. That sounds like a good reason to play.

Until I get proof that they don't reason. I'll assume they do.
Any primatologist worth his salt will tell you that our greater ape (gorilla, orangutan, chimpanizee & bonobo) cousins most certainly do reason. They are all known to use tools in the wild. Using a stone to open hard-shelled foods requires that the animal see the problem (getting to the food that is contained within a shell) and formulate a solution to the problem, i.e.; finding a tool that is harder than the exterior of the shelled food, and using it to break open the shell. The primate has used reason to forsee that exerting greater force upon the hard-shelled food with the use of a tool will bring about the desired result, that is, the acquisition of the food.

Dolphins are extremely intelligent and have been used by Naval intelligence due to their ability to reason.

Many mammals understand that actions can bring about consequences, whether desirable or undesirable and have been shown to act in ways that bring about desired consequences. That cannot be attributed to simple matter of DNA sequencing and instinct.

You should take a look at the book, "The Evolution of Thought," which explores the evolutionary origins of intelligence and reason in the great apes. It's an eye-opening experience.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: In The Deep Blue Sea
102 posts, read 322,804 times
Reputation: 52
I'm not real happy with what PETA does. I think they give vegetarians and vegans a bad name. I am a vegetarian, but I don't try to make other people feel bad about eating meat. All I ever do is tell meat-eaters that they should watch how much red meat they eat. I don't think vegetarians should try to force their eating ways on other people. However, I am impressed that my family has started eating more meatless meals since I became a vegetarian.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:08 PM
 
Location: In The Deep Blue Sea
102 posts, read 322,804 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by fnord View Post
I'm vegan, and I am not against hunting. When I say hunting, I'm referring to people who hunt, kill, and EAT the animal. Sure, on a human level it may sound sad and cruel in the event the animal is wounded and suffering or leaves babies behind, but...that happens in nature EVERY DAY without humans even in the picture.

What does disgust me is sport hunting, where the animal is killed for fun and left behind. This is common in New Mexico, where you can find scores of birds along the mesas in hunting areas that have been shot out of the sky and left to rot. For "fun". That's about as ethical as shooting animals from planes or helicopters.
Then you probably have a lot of respect for the Native Americans of the old days. When they killed an animal, every part of that animal was used for something.
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