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At this income forget about home ownership. A modest apartment in Vermont now costs about $1000 a month on average, which requires an hourly wage of $17.70 or an annual income of $36,800. About 50% of Vermont’s occupations have median wages below this threshold. This ranks Vermont as the 7th worst state in the nation for cost burdened renters. Incomes remained essentially flat since the previous year. Once the rising cost of goods and services is factored in, there was a small decline in relative incomes for Vermont households.These are not urban Vermont the numbers are reflecting. The numbers are what the average is in the state. When families pay more than 30 percent of their income for housing costs, they don’t have enough left over for other basic necessities, like food, clothing, transportation and health care. Another cost that many overlook is retirement. Most businesses do not contribute or contribute very little unless you put in a % of your income.
The Vermont Dept. of Labor released income data on the 10 occupations employing the most Vermonters, all but two were below the 17.70. 17.70 is the new hourly figure that was released recently due to the increases in goods and services.
I live just outside of Burlington. The places to live or rent are not much cheaper than what you get in Burlington. The big difference is many of the places are slightly larger or in better condition for the money.
I can vouch for this based on personal experience with renting now. Our upper half of a 3 bedroom duplex, for which we provide most minor (trash, lawn care, etc) services, runs $1300. It is in the Burlington area, but to move out of it would maybe only drop $100 or $200, the larger we made our commute. Even then we're talking renting a house in only fair condition and possibly still mowing the lawn, etc.
We've given up on home ownership in Vermont, despite a $50K+ income and no debt. To be fair, we've been a 1 income (ish) family and I've become extremely fussy about condition and unwilling to pay more than traditional prices (3x annual income). (We owed a run down farmhouse for 7 years before we got tired of living in a construction zone.) Anything vaguely in our price range would require thousands of dollars of work, making even a modest house in an outlying area over the $200K mark. (Sometimes I think that's too low - like $225K minimum for a house in okay condition.)
$1300/mo for rent and no mortgage interest deductions…………..yikes. My MA house is just over that for Mortgage and Taxes combined………….the log cabin we built in VT is less than $800/mo for the mortgage, although we obviously get porked on the non-resident taxes.
I still cannot figure out how the Burlington area commands such a high real estate price. But then again, Burlington and most of Chitty County doesn’t strike me as VT either based on our choice to be in the NEK.
I sure don’t envy those trying to make ends meet in that market given the career options; if someone can nail down a solid paying career with good benefits, awesome and they should never let it go.
On $200k with 20% down, and $4000 taxes, $1300 is mortgages, taxes and homeowners insurance. The difference between renting is you get to deduct the interest and get equity,however you also have to maintain the home. which as you know can be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ especially if it's old
I do not know about Burlington but in other places, 200k buys a small but decent home in many other places. There are 16 3 BR listings under $225k on realtor.com in Burlington but you're right none of them look spectacular.
What amount of money would make you feel comfortable enough to buy a home at what price.
I also don't know what property taxes are like. I got the $4000 number from another listing. Burlington may be a lot cheaper?
Last edited by joe moving; 09-15-2010 at 06:38 AM..
I still cannot figure out how the Burlington area commands such a high real estate price. But then again, Burlington and most of Chitty County doesn’t strike me as VT either based on our choice to be in the NEK.
I sure don’t envy those trying to make ends meet in that market given the career options; if someone can nail down a solid paying career with good benefits, awesome and they should never let it go.
Just speculation on Burlington's attractions, because I'm not an expert.
College students have been skewing the rental market for a long time. UVM upped enrollment for several years straight and built no new housing. They have built more now, but I highly doubt it matches the % they dumped on the community over the years. And of course, college students can room together and out bid even 2 income families.
As for the people with families, like us, the Burlington area holds most of the jobs. The IBM plant is the single largest employer. Commutes from outlying areas are doable but tough, thanks mostly to road conditions in the winter. Around here, you can only take so many "snow" days from work. (That might be zero, depending on the employer.) A short commute really improves your quality of life, especially on bad winter days.
The only reason we haven't moved earlier is because my husband has a very good job here. But...it sort of trapped us, too, in the high cost Burlington area. So in the middle of a potential double-dip, we're pulling up stakes and praying that he can come up with a good job at the other end.
On $200k with 20% down, and $4000 taxes, $1300 is mortgages, taxes and homeowners insurance. The difference between renting is you get to deduct the interest and get equity,however you also have to maintain the home. which as you know can be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ especially if it's old
I do not know about Burlington but in other places, 200k buys a small but decent home in many other places. There are 16 3 BR listings under $225k on realtor.com in Burlington but you're right none of them look spectacular.
What amount of money would make you feel comfortable enough to buy a home at what price.
I also don't know what property taxes are like. I got the $4000 number from another listing. Burlington may be a lot cheaper?
Burlington and cheaper don't quite go together. I haven't looked into property tax rates in Burlington proper but given the local politics, I can't imagine their tax rates being lower than the rest of Chittenden county.
I know exactly what you are saying about the price I'm paying for rent. I've done the calculations and it's the maintenance that puts ownership as more expensive than renting. The bottom line is that since the 80's or so, it's been very hard and expensive to put through large scale development. We've been somewhat rotting away and getting more expensive ever since.
Our ambitions are very modest house wise. What we want and need is a simple 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom house. I don't feel condos are a good long term investment as there is so much direct reliance your neighbors to keep the values up. If your neighbors decide to walk away en mass, someone is sending you their bill, too. Plus, I might as well rent as the lifestyle usually very similar.
I can pretty much guarantee you that those under $225K listings will need extensive work - either mechanical systems, cosmetic or both. Like I wrote previously, I've gotten a little older and lot fussier. I'm not plunking down close to a quarter of a million dollars (plus interest!) to have our weekends consumed again. It's okay if I'm getting something I can just live in for the most part, rather than work on, but that's no longer the case in where we want to live in Vermont.
$1300/mo for rent and no mortgage interest deductions…………..yikes. My MA house is just over that for Mortgage and Taxes combined………….the log cabin we built in VT is less than $800/mo for the mortgage, although we obviously get porked on the non-resident taxes.
[FONT=Arial]I still cannot figure out how the Burlington area commands such a high real estate price. But then again, Burlington and most of Chitty County doesn’t strike me as VT either based on our choice to be in the NEK.[/font]
I sure don’t envy those trying to make ends meet in that market given the career options; if someone can nail down a solid paying career with good benefits, awesome and they should never let it go.
It's simple. As the population grows, Act 250 prevents more housing from being built, so you end up with artificially high prices for really rundown places.
Vermont has become a state whose major business are tourism/hospitality (a low paying industry wherever you are), medical and government which includes teaching. Unless they are interested in medical or government the majority of Vermonts brightest and most ambitous youth move elsewhere to find decent paying jobs. That leaves Vermont with the dumbest, least educated and laziest of it's youth to support through state subsidies or those low paying jobs Vermont is getting famous for.
Vermont was once a manufacturing powerhouse because of the energy available from the fast flowing rivers just like most of New England, now there is nothing to attract business to move to the state. High taxes, energy cost, restrictive and costly development laws and poor transportation aren't going to do it. Anyone expecting things to change in Vermont in the near future are in for a huge disappointment.
In truth there are many states that offer as good a quality of life and scenery as Vermont, you only have to stay because you want to, nobody can force you to stay.
Vermont has become a state whose major business are tourism/hospitality (a low paying industry wherever you are), medical and government which includes teaching. Unless they are interested in medical or government the majority of Vermonts brightest and most ambitous youth move elsewhere to find decent paying jobs. That leaves Vermont with the dumbest, least educated and laziest of it's youth to support through state subsidies or those low paying jobs Vermont is getting famous for.
Vermont was once a manufacturing powerhouse because of the energy available from the fast flowing rivers just like most of New England, now there is nothing to attract business to move to the state. High taxes, energy cost, restrictive and costly development laws and poor transportation aren't going to do it. Anyone expecting things to change in Vermont in the near future are in for a huge disappointment.
In truth there are many states that offer as good a quality of life and scenery as Vermont, you only have to stay because you want to, nobody can force you to stay.
This is so true. The lie that VT is the most beautiful state in the country, or that the people here are better than elsewhere has been used to justify the cost of living for so long that its getting a bit silly.
Most people I know (working people, that is) survive on wages of LESS than the $17 quoted in the article by taking advantage of various social service benefits (food stamps, WIC, Dr. Dynosaur health insrurance for their kids, heating assistance, etc.)
$17/hr is a good wage in my county (Lamoille). Most of the people in the small company I work for make less.
Most native Vermonters I know don't think twice about accepting help b/c that's all they've ever known and most need the help to get by. The problem is that there aren't enough average-high income people to subsidize these programs forever.
Vermont was once a manufacturing powerhouse because of the energy available from the fast flowing rivers just like most of New England, now there is nothing to attract business to move to the state. High taxes, energy cost, restrictive and costly development laws and poor transportation aren't going to do it. Anyone expecting things to change in Vermont in the near future are in for a huge disappointment.
This is probably saddens me the most about what Vermont has let itself become. At one point Burlington was an honest to god port that attracted high quality furniture makers thanks to it's local forests and access to bigger markets. Sheep farming and textile mills were big business. Dairy sprang up, not in it's subsidized or organic version, but because Lake Champlain and the Hudson offered easy access to markets down river.
Of course, time sweeps on and things change, but it's sad to think some of the economic and housing deterioration is self inflicted. We don't want good roads to connect us to other places. Instead of properly planning development, we created a system that defacto has it ground it to a virtual halt. The people who built the Vermont that is swooned over so much wouldn't understand today's Vermont at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-springfielder
In truth there are many states that offer as good a quality of life and scenery as Vermont, you only have to stay because you want to, nobody can force you to stay.
This is so true. It's dangerous to believe your own marketing hype.
We're in the last stages now of moving because we've finally figured this out. Being a native, I'm a little bit too stubborn for my own good and it took me a while to get there. A near relation moving away also sped up the process. It's scary in the middle of a recession but, like you, I don't see any changes on the horizon to current trends.
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I haven't looked into property tax rates in Burlington proper but given the local politics, I can't imagine their tax rates being lower than the rest of Chittenden county.
