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Old 06-10-2018, 09:21 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,206,840 times
Reputation: 9020

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A slightly larger high school will have more opportunities for the students than a tiny one. I think that makes sense. I think elementary school is where smaller schools make more sense. If the school boards could learn to be a bit more frugal we could keep smaller rural elementary schools without blowing the budgets. The multiple supervisory unions should be eliminated. That's a huge expenditure for something that doesn't necessarily improve the education quality. All those larger salaries than teacher salaries for administrators in such a small state. And the expenses associated with any facilities required for them, their meetings, etc.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:23 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,206,840 times
Reputation: 9020
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Well, if you like living in the burbs, then you've got your answer.

But if you like having your kids grow up with and play with the kids they go to school with; if you like sharing and working in common with the parents of those kids; if you want your community to enjoy knowing that all the parents know all the kids and are backing one an mother up; if you want to know the satisfaction of seeing how your town contributed to the development of every kid; if you want to spend your retirement years enjoying the memories of living in a real community, well then you'd prefer to have a school rather than a reduction in taxes that will give you a night out once a month.
If every student in towns x, y and z go to the same high school than by default they will be with the kids they went to school with at the lower grades. Let's be honest here too a "large" high school in most of VT is not very big.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:24 AM
 
2,780 posts, read 997,883 times
Reputation: 3678
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Well, if you like living in the burbs, then you've got your answer.

But if you like having your kids grow up with and play with the kids they go to school with; if you like sharing and working in common with the parents of those kids; if you want your community to enjoy knowing that all the parents know all the kids and are backing one an mother up; if you want to know the satisfaction of seeing how your town contributed to the development of every kid; if you want to spend your retirement years enjoying the memories of living in a real community, well then you'd prefer to have a school rather than a reduction in taxes that will give you a night out once a month.
You are coming at this emotionally in a theoretical feel good manner. Springfield's kids are seriously under performing at every level compared to the rest of the State. This likely reflects the poverty rate more than anything else. Keeping them isolated in your little schools is not doing them any favors. Were they part of a larger school system, they and their parents would perhaps see there is a whole other world out there that they could aspire to. I can attest to that.


I grew up literally on the wrong side of the tracks in the old blue collar neighborhood in an otherwise affluent school district. It was by being exposed to that whole other world in school that I realized I didn't have to go work in a factory like all the men in my neighborhood and that I could aspire to much more. The size of the school also afforded a rich curriculum that small high schools just can't provide. In college I was shocked at what some of my friends had never gotten in high school.

The parents and schools in Springfield are not developing the town's kids but are rather holding them back, and at great expense, though that expense is on the backs of the rest of the State.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Western views of Mansfield/Camels Hump!
1,941 posts, read 3,227,812 times
Reputation: 1085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biker53 View Post
You are coming at this emotionally in a theoretical feel good manner. Springfield's kids are seriously under performing at every level compared to the rest of the State. This likely reflects the poverty rate more than anything else. Keeping them isolated in your little schools is not doing them any favors. Were they part of a larger school system, they and their parents would perhaps see there is a whole other world out there that they could aspire to. I can attest to that.


I grew up literally on the wrong side of the tracks in the old blue collar neighborhood in an otherwise affluent school district. It was by being exposed to that whole other world in school that I realized I didn't have to go work in a factory like all the men in my neighborhood and that I could aspire to much more. The size of the school also afforded a rich curriculum that small high schools just can't provide. In college I was shocked at what some of my friends had never gotten in high school.

The parents and schools in Springfield are not developing the town's kids but are rather holding them back, and at great expense, though that expense is on the backs of the rest of the State.
Wish I could give you more rep. This is spot on.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:51 AM
 
35,325 posts, read 24,986,098 times
Reputation: 32369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Well, if you like living in the burbs, then you've got your answer.

But if you like having your kids grow up with and play with the kids they go to school with; if you like sharing and working in common with the parents of those kids; if you want your community to enjoy knowing that all the parents know all the kids and are backing one an mother up; if you want to know the satisfaction of seeing how your town contributed to the development of every kid; if you want to spend your retirement years enjoying the memories of living in a real community, well then you'd prefer to have a school rather than a reduction in taxes that will give you a night out once a month.


Um, if there is only 20 kids in the freaking class, you're not just hanging and playing with those either. My school class was about 220 and there was no problem with parents knowing each other, socializing with each other, etc.


A 20-30 kid graduating class is ridiculously wasteful. And really, not a good school experience either. A larger school will have more options, more offerings, more varied people to interact with, more competition (which fuels improvement) in arts, music, theatre and sports, more academic interaction. It's a win.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tkln View Post
Wish I could give you more rep. This is spot on.
Same. Spot on. I went to UVM for undergrad. These top 5-10% of their class from rural/small town Vermont schools were seriously freaking underprepared for college. They were at the tops of their classes and they couldn't hack Bio 1, Chem 1, etc. The drop out rate was absurd. For me, at a good school system, being a middle of the pack student, Bio1/2, Chem 1/2, was primarily review and easy As.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Western views of Mansfield/Camels Hump!
1,941 posts, read 3,227,812 times
Reputation: 1085
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Same. Spot on. I went to UVM for undergrad. These top 5-10% of their class from rural/small town Vermont schools were seriously freaking underprepared for college. They were at the tops of their classes and they couldn't hack Bio 1, Chem 1, etc. The drop out rate was absurd. For me, at a good school system, being a middle of the pack student, Bio1/2, Chem 1/2, was primarily review and easy As.
I went to a very small private elementary school in NYC - my entire sixth-grade class had 10 kids - we combined with the fifth-grade class, which was I think 5 or 6 kids.

When I transferred to the public middle school, I nearly failed both math and science the first year. Had to get a tutor. It was such culture shock going from a tiny school to 'general population' lol.

My high school in NYC was almost 4000 kids, and that was back in the late 80s. While I wouldn't say that was an ideal learning experience, neither is a school with 50 kids. It's all cute and cozy and cuddly but it doesn't do much to prepare you for the real world. Unless you never leave your tiny corner of Vermont, you will have a very rude awakening.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:13 AM
 
13,728 posts, read 7,276,211 times
Reputation: 25120
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Same. Spot on. I went to UVM for undergrad. These top 5-10% of their class from rural/small town Vermont schools were seriously freaking underprepared for college. They were at the tops of their classes and they couldn't hack Bio 1, Chem 1, etc. The drop out rate was absurd. For me, at a good school system, being a middle of the pack student, Bio1/2, Chem 1/2, was primarily review and easy As.

I'm UVM '80 and it was the same way then. Most of the flatlanders came from professional bedroom towns. You went to UVM back then because you couldn't get into the Ivys. I got an A- in Intermediate French because it was all flatlanders who had done a year abroad and I didn't have that level of fluency. Everything else was an easy A. The Electrical Engineering and Computer Science classes were a real bloodbath. There was one native Vermonter who didn't flunk out of the Electrical Engineering program and her father was an IBMer EE at the Essex Junction plant. If you don't have the math in High School, I don't see how you can keep up.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:29 AM
 
13,728 posts, read 7,276,211 times
Reputation: 25120
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Well, if you like living in the burbs, then you've got your answer.

But if you like having your kids grow up with and play with the kids they go to school with; if you like sharing and working in common with the parents of those kids; if you want your community to enjoy knowing that all the parents know all the kids and are backing one an mother up; if you want to know the satisfaction of seeing how your town contributed to the development of every kid; if you want to spend your retirement years enjoying the memories of living in a real community, well then you'd prefer to have a school rather than a reduction in taxes that will give you a night out once a month.

Way better than getting your education in Springfield VT, hit age 18 with no 21st century job skills, and live in poverty for the rest of your life waiting for the middle class wage factory jobs to come back.



I'm trying to understand how you could possibly think that higher population density places with more affluence don't have a sense of community. My flatland town spends way more per pupil than where I own my Vermont vacation home. In Flatlandia, it's a mildly above average school system in a socioeconomically mixed town where you have doctor/lawyer kids in the same classroom as TANF/SNAP kids. In Vermont, it would be pretty much top in the state.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:51 AM
 
809 posts, read 672,591 times
Reputation: 1332
It comes down to what the population of a town wants, GeoffD. Here in Springfield where for a century the population let the manufacturers have their way, we developed a town with a very passive citizenry. Right now, this place is ideal for people who want to build a sharing, involved, creative community-- and some have already shown up.

Income level has a LOT to do with sense of community. It puts people in bubbles they rarely get out of.

If you are at an income level where you have to focus on how to feed the family until the next check comes in, you're bound to have your friends and neighbors in the same situation and unable to spend energy broadening your focus. If you are at an income level where your kids are getting an excellent education, you are in a group that is not likely to wonder how others' kids are being served.

It takes persons with broad education to act according to democratic values.
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Old 06-11-2018, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Vermont
1,334 posts, read 450,086 times
Reputation: 2002
The ‘broad education’ generally does not apply to Vermonters, in my experience, but to ‘flatlanders’ some of you seem to hold in contempt. Also in my experience, ‘flatlanders’ are the ones who hold down the good jobs and pay the full amount of taxes (without subsidies). I guess that’s fine by you but if we want to complain about the insane, ill-considered spending and the adamant refusal to consider cost containment strategies, one being consolidation of the smaller schools, we are denigrated. You can pound sand.
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