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I have a cousin who retired from a lifelong career at General Motors and just built a new lakefront house with a large dock and boathouse on a lake in a southern state worth about $400-500K and pays $700/year in taxes. They have good environmental protection, much better roads than VT, an education system on par with Vt, and in an area with a MUCH better economic picture than Vt. They don't "live in a society where they envy their neighbors, despise their government and lead lives tinged with fear. They love their neighbors who are warm friendly and outgoing people, like their government for not taxing them to death, and the only fear they are tinged with is that too many northerners fleeing their high taxes will flood in and trample the place like they have at so many other places down there.
This is certainly the neverending thread! Lol.
Just caught up with the last 4 pages.
My two cents after reading the backs and forths, forgive my repetitiousness for those who know me:
1. I left northwest NJ for full time residence in southeast Vermont a year ago. We had a 3,000 sq ft home, on 4 acres. Our taxes were $8,000 in 2010, by the time we bailed a mere 7 years later, we were paying $13,500! As we were in a semi rural area in Sussex county, the kids were bused to county school. Up there in the farmlands it was lovely, but quite the nightmare of a commute to any good paying job center.
In the town I lived previous, 13 miles south, folks were paying $25,000 in taxes for mcmansions on 2 acres, with an equally lousy commute.
2. We currently, and forevermore, live here in the mountains off route 30, 10 miles north of brattleboro. We have a 2,000+ sq ft home on 35 beautiful acres of land. My first year taxes were $5,800. If I do a land use program, or readjust for next years income, that figure might go down a bit. We just finished splitting our last cord of seasoned wood from our land. No heating Bill's this winter.
So here in Vermont, we are paying less than half in taxes for slightly less house, but almost 9x the land, which is 2 contiguous lots and subdividable.
3. We have a stunningly gorgeous town green, with a few choices for food purchase and dining essentials, a lumberyard, a farm market and greenhouse, massage place, a library, book store, post office and are 10 miles to small town or strip road shopping in fun brattleboro. We personally do not require more than those options, but New Hampshire is right across the river and Massachusetts is straight shot over our southern border for even more.
In our retirement we dont require or desire a huge house anymore, so we went smaller. We do like to hike our land tho, that's important for us and why we bought this place.
We are not big consumers either. We have more than enuf stuff, too much in fact.
As far as health care and the proximity of; 5 miles to a fabulous top 20 in the country rural hospital. The bigger facilities 10 miles south or D H across the border.
But all those facts being stated, it seems to me that there is some comparison between apples and oranges going on here.
I searched south of the Mason Dixon line, before settling in Vermont.
Sure, my taxes in Virginia might have been less than they are here, but I found out by much extensive travelling back and forth that, for many reasons, the south is not for me. Forget Florida.
For those folks who like the heat, the southern culture, that's great! Save your few grand a year and be content.
But for those of us who lean the other way, and are looking for a different lifestyle, the few grand a year more is not that big a deal.
It woiudl be nice if nebloke named that Southern state. Vermont is head and shoulders above almost every other state in quality of life. Anybody who wants to trade quality of life for lower taxes and leaves Vermont is likely to get what he deserves.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,935,179 times
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Originally Posted by cgregor
It woiudl be nice if nebloke named that Southern state. Vermont is head and shoulders above almost every other state in quality of life. Anybody who wants to trade quality of life for lower taxes and leaves Vermont is likely to get what he deserves.
Seriously, I want to know where this utopia is. Haha.
It woiudl be nice if nebloke named that Southern state. Vermont is head and shoulders above almost every other state in quality of life. Anybody who wants to trade quality of life for lower taxes and leaves Vermont is likely to get what he deserves.
I have to agree. Many focus just on the lower taxes in southern states, and then have a rude awakening culturally. My parents did that years ago. It was a pleasant enough place but to me it felt like living in a conservative theocracy. The first question any of the locals asked upon meeting you was what church you belonged to. Give the wrong answer such as in my parents case (Catholic) and the welcome cools a bit.
Their small town had multiple times the number of police that similarly sized towns do up here, and it seemed their reason to exist was to fund the town by ticketing those who were caught going 17 mph in a 16 mph zone or 31 in a 30 mph zone, and yes they had a 16 mph zone going down a hill no less. I have never seen so many police in an otherwise quiet small town.
In other ways with social issues that are non-issues up here it felt like living 20 years in the past down there. Perhaps if you live in an area predominantly populated with northern transplants you can avoid the cultural shock, but beware otherwise.
My daughter taught in a small town school outside the suburban area she lives in, and the Principal of the school seemed to be unaware of separation of church and state. He'd start faculty meetings with a prayer and provided the local baptist church with the contact info of the faculty so that they could send them cards and such.
I have to agree. Many focus just on the lower taxes in southern states, and then have a rude awakening culturally. My parents did that years ago. It was a pleasant enough place but to me it felt like living in a conservative theocracy. The first question any of the locals asked upon meeting you was what church you belonged to. Give the wrong answer such as in my parents case (Catholic) and the welcome cools a bit.
Their small town had multiple times the number of police that similarly sized towns do up here, and it seemed their reason to exist was to fund the town by ticketing those who were caught going 17 mph in a 16 mph zone or 31 in a 30 mph zone, and yes they had a 16 mph zone going down a hill no less. I have never seen so many police in an otherwise quiet small town.
In other ways with social issues that are non-issues up here it felt like living 20 years in the past down there. Perhaps if you live in an area predominantly populated with northern transplants you can avoid the cultural shock, but beware otherwise.
My daughter taught in a small town school outside the suburban area she lives in, and the Principal of the school seemed to be unaware of separation of church and state. He'd start faculty meetings with a prayer and provided the local baptist church with the contact info of the faculty so that they could send them cards and such.
For a died in the wool liberal, I presume any southern state would feel like 'living in a conservative theocracy.' Just like for a conservative, living here is like living in a land of loony tunes. I guess the shoe has never been on the other foot, as it is for me, where I truly have learned I need to stay quiet about any of my conservative leaning opinions because I will be ostracized. Things are changing a little bit, though, as the $$ part of living here has hit everyone in the face with the increasing taxes year after year. Yea, I know, it gets old. But add those increases to the costs of everything else, and some people truly have to consider relocating simply because they cannot afford it here. I know a few. Vermont is no utopia but it does indeed have much to offer in the way of solitude and nature.
I'm talking about the pros and cons of a 2nd home in VT vs a 2nd home at a southern beach, NOT the pros and cons of living in VT vs living in the south. We love to visit both places but have no desire to live in ether one full time. We are faced with a decision between a 2nd home in VT on land that we currently own vs and second home at a southern beach. Our preference at this point in our life happens to be the southern beach in large part, but not entirely, because of the cost of ownership. Taxes and rental income are significant factors regarding the cost of ownership. In VT our taxes would be high and there would be no opportunity to offset the cost of ownership with rental income due to low demand. At the southern beach, there are low taxes and strong rental income which greatly offset the cost of ownership. From a pure dollar and cents standpoint, the southern beach is a clear winner.
From a personal preference standpoint, to each his own. There is no right or wrong, just ones own personal preferences. Our personal preference for a 2nd home in retirement at this stage of our life is a warm sunny beach to escape to for the better part of March and April. That is must for us. We have always been 4 season loving people and always will be but as we have aged winter in the northeast has gotten way too long for us. Having the ability to end it every year on or about March 1st is extremely appealing to us. September at the beach for 2-3 weeks would also be nice along with a summer beach vacation with as much of the family as we can pull together, something we already do now at this southern beach location.
As far as our southern beach goes, I'm not telling. It was once a great secret but not any more. I will say it's not in Florida, Florida is not for us, way too overrun. My parents have owned a place at this southern beach since the 70s and I have been going there for over 50 years. My father is gone now and when my mother passes we will have the opportunity to buyout their current 3 bedroom condo unit from my siblings. It was built in the late 80s, sits on a 10 acre palm tree filled low density site directly on the bay with private boat docks and a boat launch, 2 large swimming pools, and direct unobstructed views of the beach and ocean from their unit. The beach is directly across a quiet 2 lane dead end road and the association owns direct private beach access. A row of houses sit directly on the beach but are smallish, well spaced and the association beach access sits directly in front of their unit providing the unobstructed views of dolphins surfacing in the morning and afternoon from the deck. The beach is quiet, clean, uncrowded, and you can walk from the unit across the street to the beach with a beer or a drink in your hand without anyone saying boo about it. Here in NJ you would get tackled and handcuffed for that. The restaurants are great and the seafood is spectacular. Every water sport imaginable is at your fingertips along with world class golf courses. Hiking and biking trails are all over the place with new one's being added all the time and there is lots else to explore in the surrounding areas. Rental income has always been strong with high demand from summer and snowbird seasons. The cost of ownership has been somewhere between $0 and $2,000/yr over the past 30 years and it has more than tripled in value over this time period. Our 20 acres in VT is not worth what we paid for it 15 years ago in 2003 despite significant improvements.
I'd keep that one under your hat, too, or it will also get overrun! Your beach dream place sounds fantastic! I hope you enjoy your retirement years there with friends and family!!
For a died in the wool liberal, I presume any southern state would feel like 'living in a conservative theocracy.' Just like for a conservative, living here is like living in a land of loony tunes. I guess the shoe has never been on the other foot, as it is for me, where I truly have learned I need to stay quiet about any of my conservative leaning opinions because I will be ostracized. Things are changing a little bit, though, as the $$ part of living here has hit everyone in the face with the increasing taxes year after year. Yea, I know, it gets old. But add those increases to the costs of everything else, and some people truly have to consider relocating simply because they cannot afford it here. I know a few. Vermont is no utopia but it does indeed have much to offer in the way of solitude and nature.
I'll be honest Pam, the great majority of folks I live near and interact with at local events are either a mix, or quite predominantly conservative leaning. I heard said that "Vermont is a state with rednecks and hippies that get along." I dont find that far off.
I get along with anyone, no matter their political leanings. But, I do not bring politics up AT ALL, in mixed events. Politics has turned quite ugly, intolerance for others viewpoints comes from both sides.
Myself I am in the middle. I am an independent voter and tend to be somewhat fiscally conservative, but I dont think a person has to be a "dyed in the wool liberal," to find the cultural difference between north and south as offputting in some degree.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by RobinG60
I'll be honest Pam, the great majority of folks I live near and interact with at local events are either a mix, or quite predominantly conservative leaning. .
Having lived and worked in VT (might be my field), but outside of Burlington proper (and downtown Brattleboro, maybe Norwich), VT has a conservative feel to me overall.
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