Considering relocating to Vermont (health insurance, school districts, closing)
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Yeah, I'm not quite sure where the negativity comes from on this particular board. I guess the 'grass is always greener on the other side' according to most who live in Vermont of those that participate in this forum. Obviously folks want to be realistic but you'd think that either Vermont is the worst possible place to live or that everyone who lives there is absolutely miserable!
I lived in a section here in Northern Virginia for what both my husband and I could afford for two years. My car in fact did get shot up twice and my neighbors tried to burn down their townhome before they moved out in the middle of the night - all were wanted for attempted murder. The new neighbor moved in and the five year old was caught trying to steal from our house! In the middle of the night I had a group of gang members banging down my door looking for the neighbor's older son....ummm...he don't live here boys! LOL, but it's all good! You have to make the best of any given situation. BTW - my townhome cost over $350K and this is what you get for that! But, I guess since my taxes would be just under 2k less a year where I live compared to Vermont and our income is higher - I'm getting off super cheap....but at what cost!
Quality of life is different for each individual. You just have to make the best of what you've got.
Being born and raised in Vermont and having parents that lost everything here in Northern Virginia from a failed business....and seeing them move back and have very little $$ - it's difficult. My father is 68 and works full time for just under $9 and they've got nothing....but ask them if they are happy and they will tell you that they'll take Vermont any day poor over the semi-fancy life they had here in Virginia when they were on the top of their game. I guess it's different for all. But that $9 an hour goes much further even in South Burlington than it would here in Northern Virginia.
we will be moving somewhere in VT this spring from the south gulf coast of florida and to find a job that pays that much would be a dream. With 20yrs exp I got a top job here for $10.25hr. $250k would buy you a house in the best slum section we have. Drop $400k and you wont get shot in your driveway and for $800k you can be in a neighborhood where your car wont get stolen. I'll take 12 bucks and stinky hippies any day.
I don't think you have done real research going into your move. I have family that live in several areas of Florida and the cost of living is much cheaper in Florida. Florida ranks right in the middle of the pack for US states while Vermont is one of the most expensive places to live. You can't compare incomes and housing prices and compare to what you make in your state. You have to look at what incomes are in the state you are moving to and compare to all factors that effect cost of living. Grocery Items, Housing, Utilities, Transportation, Health Care, Misc Goods & Services. The good news is that most of the homework is done for people. You just need to know where to look.
Because a livable wage is based on family size, these is no one livable wage number. Since 2001, the State of Vermont Joint Fiscal Office (JFO) has estimated the cost of basic needs and the equivalent livable wage. This is two year old information that would now require a higher income, but it gives you an idea.
Single person, no children $16.75/hr or $34,840/yr, Single parent, one child $24.04/yr or $50,003/yr, Single parent, two children $29.98/yr or $62,358/yr, Two parents, one wage earner, two children (assumes no childcare) $30.67/yr or $63,794/yr, Two parents, two wage earners, two children $19.41/hr or $80,746/yr. These are state averages. if you were to live in the Burlington area, the required income is higher. Now the numbers are a good starting point. You roughly know what the livable wage is, but the issue is that nearly 50% of jobs in Vermont have a median wage that pays less than $11.58/hr or $24,086/yr. That $12/hr job in Vermont does not look so good when you really look at the facts.
As someone who grew up in Vermont and owns property and a business I can tell you where the negativity comes from. It is frustration at seeing what is happening to Vermont and how our government is actively dismantling the state's commercial tax base.
I see where this is headed - the end result will be wealthy transplants who look down their noses at the Vermonters who are unable to find work because business after business has picked up and moved out of state. The middle class is disappearing - it used to be that if you had a good work ethic and a willingness to learn you could make a good living. Not so anymore. The state undermines business and enterprise where it can, and if it misses something you can be assured that the municipalities will find a way to hamstring you. That is of course, unless you are friends with the "right" politician.
I've seen it happen too many times. I've given up beating my head against the wall, the years I spent on the BOD of a non-profit business development organization were a waste of my time. Vermont does not want enterprise and it does not want people actually working for a living. What they want is independently wealthy individuals financing the growing welfare rolls and nothing inbetween. THAT is where it is headed.
I don't really think a political rant like this is appropriate in the state forums. Suffice it to say that in my view, the claim that the state is trying to undermine and dismantle private businesses is no more than a paranoid fantasy.
Jack I believe we have had the discussion before so I won't repeat myself here other than to say that I can name many cases of businesses that have left the state because of its policies.
And I do not consider it a "policital rant," I consider it relevant to the interest of anyone who comes to Vermont an expects to find a job. My opinion - and this is based on 35 years of experience after reaching adulthood, the last nine of which were with my own business, is that it is unrealistic to arrive in Vermont and expect to find employment that will support a lifestyle that many expect. It is neither paranoid nor a fantasy, it is based on my own experience and experiences of business owners whom I know personally who have left and taken good jobs with them to other states.
My opinion is that it is highly advisable to
- have a good job lined up before you arrive
- bring your money with you
- bring your business with you (and expect to find a hostile climate)
or
- expect to be poor.
Last edited by FrugalYankee; 09-27-2011 at 07:55 AM..
Reason: to be fair I shouldn't cound growing up in VT as experience :)
I've lived here almost thirty years myself, and I know people who have built and expanded good, productive businesses and been very successful here.
You're right that people can't expect to make in Vermont what they made in New Jersey. It's also true, and I think we're seeing that all over, that the entire economy has gotten much worse for people who have no particular education or job skills. Whether it's construction, auto mechanics, or milking cows, there are virtually no jobs that don't call for a pretty good education, including literacy and computer literacy. The shade tree mechanic just can't make it unless his shade tree can read error codes.
Although I haven't lived in VT since the late '80s, I do visit every year, and I have to admit, even with all the improvements, VT, and esp Burlington, have become very, very expensive. It's all the more glaring when you consider that VT is largely a rural state, with only one significant urban area, that's not really all that urban. The real danger is allowing VT to become an economic "boutique" state, with a scarcity of jobs that families, and not just single people, can live on, and therin lies the challenge..
I have thought of returning to VT ( Burlington) when retirement comes, but now, for a number of reasons, it's probably not likely, with the cost of living there being a prime consideration ( along with the "been there, done that" factor)...
I have friends who opened a second business two years ago in Vermont and they love Vermont. I'm not into the business aspect or even presume to know. However, my parents had a business here in Northern Virginia. Now - it was their own fault that it failed but they got a lot of help from a German company that came in and bought the shopping center that they rented in. Unfortunately their lease never had a cap on it for CAM. Well - their entire rent went up over $18,000 a month. Ok - we are talking that they had a SMALL gift store and didn't do even remotely that kind of business. They couldn't afford to pay the rent, got sued, and it was perfectly 100% legal. They had their business attached to their house (a big no-no) and lost everything. I don't know about taxes, etc. and all that kind of stuff so maybe this is all apples and oranges but the state of Virginia could have cared less about the situation since it was a small business. I called the state several times and employed anyone to look at the situation as being somehow unethical. I was told that if the business was larger and employed people or was minority owned they might be able to help but since it wasn't - they didn't see a need to step in.
When I look at a state like Vermont that has approximately 625,000 people according to the last census and look at Fairfax County that has over one million....and my county (I live on the line) that has close to 500,000 it's a wonder that people have to be taxed a bit more heavily.....there are hardly any people living in the entire state itself.
If people who live in Vermont really hate it that much....then they can always move out. But, I'm not hearing that from my family and friends and future neighbors. I'm really only hearing it on this board.
Is Vermont a tax heavy state....yes. Can you make up some of that money in other areas, yes - some (not all). But, I feel like the first words out of many people's mouths are just soooo negative... It is one thing to be realistic and factual - but many seem to think that folks living in other states just do 'oh so well' and that the grass is definitely greener.
My little brother fared a bit better in Virginia when he was living here. He has just started to get back on his feet after a few years of living in Vermont. He is 28 and has made lots of sacrifices when he moved. I asked him if he would like to move back to Virginia (which he could and easily) and he said - definitely not. He is finally making making just over $13.00 an hour after spending a couple of years making the minimum wage up there. That will go a lot further for him up there than down here.
I think many people are thinking that folks living in other areas make top dollar. I know folks who think we are just raking it in living in the DC area because that's where all the jobs are right....yes, but do you know how much competition there is for those jobs? I'm happy that I have a job and that we are able to get by....but I'm not making those upper figures or even close to a 6 figure salary that most would assume I am making by living here. I WISH I was one of those folks but that just isn't reality.
I don't think you have done real research going into your move. I have family that live in several areas of Florida and the cost of living is much cheaper in Florida. Florida ranks right in the middle of the pack for US states while Vermont is one of the most expensive places to live. You can't compare incomes and housing prices and compare to what you make in your state. You have to look at what incomes are in the state you are moving to and compare to all factors that effect cost of living. Grocery Items, Housing, Utilities, Transportation, Health Care, Misc Goods & Services. The good news is that most of the homework is done for people. You just need to know where to look.
Because a livable wage is based on family size, these is no one livable wage number. Since 2001, the State of Vermont Joint Fiscal Office (JFO) has estimated the cost of basic needs and the equivalent livable wage. This is two year old information that would now require a higher income, but it gives you an idea.
Single person, no children $16.75/hr or $34,840/yr, Single parent, one child $24.04/yr or $50,003/yr, Single parent, two children $29.98/yr or $62,358/yr, Two parents, one wage earner, two children (assumes no childcare) $30.67/yr or $63,794/yr, Two parents, two wage earners, two children $19.41/hr or $80,746/yr. These are state averages. if you were to live in the Burlington area, the required income is higher. Now the numbers are a good starting point. You roughly know what the livable wage is, but the issue is that nearly 50% of jobs in Vermont have a median wage that pays less than $11.58/hr or $24,086/yr. That $12/hr job in Vermont does not look so good when you really look at the facts.
checking this forum there are alot of negatives about low pay high taxes and stinky hippies so I went and checked some vermont facts that were important to me and my family. I checked stats on violent crime offenses, motor vehicle death rate, firearms death rate, teen and child death rate and vermont was was near or at the bottom of all these lists. It was middle of the road for most things related to money and near the top for housing prices but i think having to work a little harder and losing some business are a fair trade to be able to see your kids grow up safe and sound. I for one cant wait to move and start a new life, poor or rich with my family and hopefully meet some people like jackmiccullough and vermonter16 along the way. The web site is World Life Expectancy. If VT dosn't work out I still have 47 states left to try.
checking this forum there are alot of negatives about low pay high taxes and stinky hippies so I went and checked some vermont facts that were important to me and my family. I checked stats on violent crime offenses, motor vehicle death rate, firearms death rate, teen and child death rate and vermont was was near or at the bottom of all these lists. It was middle of the road for most things related to money and near the top for housing prices but i think having to work a little harder and losing some business are a fair trade to be able to see your kids grow up safe and sound. I for one cant wait to move and start a new life, poor or rich with my family and hopefully meet some people like jackmiccullough and vermonter16 along the way. The web site is World Life Expectancy. If VT dosn't work out I still have 47 states left to try.
I don't think I ever said Vermont was a horrible place to live. I am a person who likes to see the facts shown. There are many who have unrealistic expectations about Vermont. This state is a great place to live and raise a family, but you have to make huge sacrifices (in many cases, not all) to live here. Our population and census data prove this point. I could rattle off the facts one after another, but I will save that for another day.
Vermont is not what it was 10-20 years ago. I know many places in our country are not the same as well, but the huge swing in state finances and the way things are paid for in this state have made life much harder for the average resident and not easier. Having a family and having lived here for almost 20 years, I can honestly say, I have to work longer hours to live here than I did 10-15 years ago. This in my opinion does not make my family life better or personal life better. Having a step-child who is making slightly more than minimum wage with a family, I know first hand how young families with little income have to struggle to try and make ends meet. In a state with one of the highest costs of living in the country, every tax break and incentives that he qualifies for, does not make life any easier for him. Low income is low income. The sad reality is that looking at the figures I posted in my previous post, if you make below those figures, you are considered low income from a livable wage stand point. Who would ever think that a single parent with 1 child making under $50,000/yr would be considered low income. To me this is a sad fact for our state. Some of this comes from our state government, while a good portion comes from residents who vote for town budgets that are next to impossible for most residents to afford. It sickens me during budget votes on how people in most towns manipulate voters. "Your taxes will only increase by less than the cost of a cup of coffee every day." We hear this year after year and the next thing you know, taxes have gone up over $1000 in a few years.
Is my life better than it was when I was living in CT? In some ways yes and in others no. Everyone's experience will be a little different.
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important facts for a family
