[AsyaMoonNate]

And, I just have to say one more thing: reading your post is actually like reading that of an AA person writing about educating their child. My Caucasian partner didn't realize racism was so rampant in the US until we started dating (he lived in Africa for a number of years and dated over there, but never here outside of his race). We get dirty looks, loud underhanded comments, he has heard slurs thrown at me (in VT, mind you--Colchester and Winooski). As a white person, he attests that he NEVER thought about color. And, YES, it's because of his privilege as a white man. There's an invincibility to being the dominant "race" (again, social construct and not biologically based; research has proven this fact) in the United States, the history, the power, the media, etc.

I'm not a victim because I'm black. I don't boo hoo my blackness. I don't hate Caucasians (obviously, since I'm madly in love with one). However, there is a point of raising children of color to also be proud of their own culture/power/uniqueness. I think this is what Mary was trying to get at. The reality of our society is that we DO look at color and make preconceptions. Her son, 20 years from now, WILL be judged on his color, not his intellect and charm and values. My son, who is the perfect balance of his parents complexions, white blond curly hair will ALSO be discriminated against because of his dark features. However, probably NOT as much as Mary's son because he's more "white".

There are levels of racism (institutionalized, internalized and personally-mediated). We ALL are racists to one degree or another. Even in my childhood neighborhood, girls were considered prettier if they were lighter skinned and hand straighter hair. This is because of the belief that the more "white" you are the more "alright" you must be. The color issue runs deep. Don't be fooled in thinking that speaking politically correctly or supposed programs put in place to combat racism are going to be like magic pixie dust and make things wonderful and sunny. Humans will always find a way to segregate ourselves from one another. Being conscientious of that and trying to be more tolerant and accepting will curtail the negative effects.

Again, just my two cents.

A

[arel]

I think a lot of whites don't understand white privilege because they are not usually consciously aware of their whiteness. Blacks are reminded daily of their blackness. This may be a generalization but I think it is probably true.

White drivers do not get stopped because they are white. I know black drivers do, because I know people who have had this happen to them. Yes, it really happens.

I think this is a large reason why so many whites don't "get it" when blacks try to educate them about racism. They think it's a non-issue because they don't consiously experience it.

I am Caucasian, though, so I can't have direct experience of racism. But, as a female and an ethnic Jew, I do have direct experience with discrimination and devaluation, both directly and indirectly. Also, growing up, I had to listen to a lot of racist talk at the dinner tabler when extended family and family friends got together. Not the vicious kind, but the complaints about "them" and what "they" wanted. Looking back, I think that kind of talk was heightened when there was a lot of crime in NYC and everyone knew someone who had gotten mugged.

A few months ago, I talked to a realtor in my neighborhood. I asked about racial discrimination. She said she "had" to show houses to blacks. She described once bringing a black family to a house and apologizing to the homeowner. I'd bet that if I had said anything to her about racism, she would have denied it and maybe gotten defensive. I didn't. But I never went back. She will not be my realtor.

Race is a very sensitive issue. I don't know how sensitive it is in Vermont, but in NYC it is very sensitive. Just check out the NYC forum and see how ugly posts can get with accusations and counteraccusations.

Just my 2 cents.

[Alexus]

Originally Posted by DestinationVermont

This is a great forum... I like to lurk, and there is definitely a lot to read and figure into our research! My situation is this - my partner and I and two pre-school kids are potentially moving from an urban big city in the Mid-Atlantic to the Burlington, Vermont area in two years. We both have terminal (JD, PhD) degrees and would consider ourselves mid-level professionals; we also may start a business but one thing at a time!

We want to be in a place that will accommodate our current lifestyle reflected in our 3000+ square foot home on .33 acre land and excellent schools in a place that is less rat-race and congested and more green and community-oriented. We can be a little forgiving on the material aspects of our lifestyle, so long as we can find good responses to this question:

As a multi-racial family and a strong commitment to diversity, how can we find both a place that values community as a core living principle as well as provides services and support to specific ethnic communities who are Asian, Black and essentially non-White? It seems that many have a response here and elsewhere like, "it's a supportive place" or "strong sense of community" - but, what are some examples, trends, and stories that might boost our confidence about Vermont as a diverse place to live?

If you have any thoughts about the job market, schools, and community activities, we would love to hear about those thoughts, too!

Wow, Vermont. I don't think I've ever heard anyone make this request before about a state that is almost as non-existent as North Dakota. If you're considering such a remote location, in a state that is overwhelmingly white, does it matter what others think? You are more likely going to be around people who are not used to multi-racial families. They won't be used to seeing them, some maybe many won't approve. It may be hard for you and your husband to make friends. You kids will be treated differently because the parents of the kids they play with are more likely not used to interracial families.

I would first take a trip there with the entire family and spend a couple weeks there to get the feel of the place. Hire a realtor, get out and be seen. Go to church. Both you are your husband find a place to get your hair cut, go shopping, visit the schools, take walks. You will discover the answers to your questions this way.

Good luck. I too have an interracial family, and I simply don't want to be in a rural environment or one that is ignorant. My wife and I are professionals as well and we like nice things. We want few distractions for our great kids. We've settled on the fact that the places that we choose to live are probably going to be on the high end and probably not that much of a mixture of races. After all, when you work hard to gain high achievement, you can live where you want and these places are probably going to be inhabited by high-achieving people, people who want the dame for their kids as you do yours.

No specific info on Burlington, I know. Just some observations. Interested in what you find out. Good luck.

[Alexus]

Originally Posted by arel

I think a lot of whites don't understand white privilege because they are not usually consciously aware of their whiteness. Blacks are reminded daily of their blackness. This may be a generalization but I think it is probably true.

White drivers do not get stopped because they are white. I know black drivers do, because I know people who have had this happen to them. Yes, it really happens.

I think this is a large reason why so many whites don't "get it" when blacks try to educate them about racism. They think it's a non-issue because they don't consiously experience it.

I am Caucasian, though, so I can't have direct experience of racism. But, as a female and an ethnic Jew, I do have direct experience with discrimination and devaluation, both directly and indirectly. Also, growing up, I had to listen to a lot of racist talk at the dinner tabler when extended family and family friends got together. Not the vicious kind, but the complaints about "them" and what "they" wanted. Looking back, I think that kind of talk was heightened when there was a lot of crime in NYC and everyone knew someone who had gotten mugged.

A few months ago, I talked to a realtor in my neighborhood. I asked about racial discrimination. She said she "had" to show houses to blacks. She described once bringing a black family to a house and apologizing to the homeowner. I'd bet that if I had said anything to her about racism, she would have denied it and maybe gotten defensive. I didn't. But I never went back. She will not be my realtor.

Race is a very sensitive issue. I don't know how sensitive it is in Vermont, but in NYC it is very sensitive. Just check out the NYC forum and see how ugly posts can get with accusations and counteraccusations.

Just my 2 cents.

You know, I really respect this post. You have very deep insights and I can tell, you are an exceptional person. Kudos to you for having the ability to put yourself in another's shoes and for being able to see a problem from the outside. Where do you live and were are you from (if you don't mind)?

[flu189]

Arel, this may come as a shock to you and some others, but in my years in law enforcement I witnessed a trend where actually "white" drivers were stopped and cited over "minority" drivers as part of an administrative PC move to avoid conflict. Not very fair for the white drivers being singled out for usually pretty minor violations for the sake of keeping enforcement statistics up. This is not intended to excuse wrongful profiling where it does in fact occur, but to rather show and actually enlighten those who think that enforcement abuses are just a one way street. The pendulum does swing both ways and because of this I am glad to be out of that line of work.

[arel]

Thank you, Buckfish. To answer your question, I am a born and bred Brooklynite. I have lived in Pennsylvania for college and I have lived in Manhattan, Westchester, in southern Rhode Island and, briefly, in White River Junction, VT. Right now I live in Brooklyn again. As soon as I get the nerve, and/or when it feels right, and/or I need to move for whatever reason, I plan to move back to Vermont.

flu, I am not too shocked by what you wrote, at least not after about 5 seconds. I once heard an ex-NYC cop explain about "collars for dollars", where some cops, at the end of their shift, would arrest someone randomly, right off the street, so they could get 6 hours overtime for the paperwork. So I am not surprised by any kind of police corruption, be it related to money or to political correctness.

[DestinationVermont]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and for taking big risks sometimes in putting it “out there.” I have to be honest to say that I never expected this thread to take the energy and level of discussion that it has thus far. In my original questions, I have sought support and advice on how Vermont could be a place for multiracial and diversity-conscious people to come and live and work. This has been very illuminating. Like some have said, there is nothing like visiting where you hope to be, which I have done consistently for over 15 years now, as my life partner is from Vermont, attended UVM, and still has many familial and friendship connections across the state. We would have a lot of friends, which is a huge load off our minds. Right now from all my experiences, research, and my lurking, I can conclude that Vermonters (and wannabe Vermonters) care about where they live, and like many places in this country, highlight their strengths and look on the bright side when it comes to their weaknesses.

I appreciate the recent comments from AsyaMoonNate and others (thanks!) about first-hand experiences and positive attitude maintained through latent and hidden forms of discrimination and racism. Sadly, I can resonate, for sure! I also can relate with Mary (marcav), since she is knowledgeable of the Vermont “culture” and has sophisticated perspectives on raising non-White kids in a predominantly White community – she is right to say that it isn’t just about being nice (good intentions); there will likely real discrimination issues that will surface, especially when there aren’t the critical masses of communities of color around. It’s the stuff my partner and I consider and give attention all the time NOW – even as we live in a place that is one of the most diverse in the country.

One conclusion I can try to make across most responders seems to be that there is a sense of a Vermont place that is static and in a sense, “just the way it is.” I might be wrong to say this, but Burlington seems to represent a part of Vermont that is unique and even idealistic, a focal point of progressiveness and where the urbanites from elsewhere (dare I say, flatlanders) would go. I am curious to know more about the limits of this essential Vermont culture that can be supportive for my multiracial self and family as well as can be a barrier. The stories you all tell are very helpful!

Over the last 15 years and as recently as last month, I have been targeted in experiences in Burlington and elsewhere in VT where I have had snowballs thrown at me, service denied, and awkward statements directed at me. To be fair, I have also had a LOT of good, positive experiences. But, I do want to know from all of you: if these acts still occur in blatant or silent ways, is there the energy (through meetings, political involvement, group actions, individual responses, etc.) needed to make this is an issue, and to see it addressed? Or, is the answer more on the side of “Sorry that happened, but what do you expect from a place like Vermont” (as some have intimated in your responses)?

I also still want to know if there is real interest in community participation in youth empowerment organizations and such that focus on assisting kids with identity awareness, community building, social justice training, and leadership development (which I am considering creating myself). I’ve heard of the SIT program. What else? Thanks also to those who have responded directly and through this forum thus far! Very helpful! I want to have a meal together with all of you!

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by DestinationVermont

I also still want to know if there is real interest in community participation in youth empowerment organizations and such that focus on assisting kids with identity awareness, community building, social justice training, and leadership development (which I am considering creating myself). I’ve heard of the SIT program. What else? Thanks also to those who have responded directly and through this forum thus far! Very helpful! I want to have a meal together with all of you!

This is very interesting. One of the reasons we want to move to Vermont is because of the relative lack of programs like you describe, which, in the opinion of many, serve only to divide people and attempt to establish different cultural norms, instead of fitting in to one common culture.

You know what they say about Burlington-it's a nice place to visit because it's so close to Vermont.

[flu189]

Originally Posted by arel

Thank you, Buckfish. To answer your question, I am a born and bred Brooklynite. I have lived in Pennsylvania for college and I have lived in Manhattan, Westchester, in southern Rhode Island and, briefly, in White River Junction, VT. Right now I live in Brooklyn again. As soon as I get the nerve, and/or when it feels right, and/or I need to move for whatever reason, I plan to move back to Vermont.

flu, I am not too shocked by what you wrote, at least not after about 5 seconds. I once heard an ex-NYC cop explain about "collars for dollars", where some cops, at the end of their shift, would arrest someone randomly, right off the street, so they could get 6 hours overtime for the paperwork. So I am not surprised by any kind of police corruption, be it related to money or to political correctness.

Most cops are tired of the daily bull**** and can't wait to get off their tours and go home. By doing the work and living the life you get a much more clear perspective than reading about it or "hearing" stories. Believe what you want as it does not matter to me as I get my check for putting up with years of this stuff. As far as cops in NYC seeking overtime does it really come as a surprise when you consider rate of pay and cost of living. God bless the younger folks that are willing to do that work today is all I can say.

[flu189]

Originally Posted by Lilybeans

This is very interesting. One of the reasons we want to move to Vermont is because of the relative lack of programs like you describe, which, in the opinion of many, serve only to divide people and attempt to establish different cultural norms, instead of fitting in to one common culture.

You know what they say about Burlington-it's a nice place to visit because it's so close to Vermont.

Lets keep us rural, there is plenty of opportunity for all special people and special programs just to the south of us. I am amazed on all the folks that are attracted to Vt for it's "lifestyle" and then want to import all of the extras from the areas they are leaving.