[jipsee]

I've been reading some other posts this morning, and wondering about the crime rate in VT compared to NH. I would think that both states would be considered safe places to live, but some of the VT stats make me a little uncomfortable. I'm thinking that stats often don't paint a reliable picture, and I would think that urban areas in VT would certainly experience more crime than rural areas, as one would expect.

[sevdie]

I have the same concerns about crimt in VT. Burlington is one of the cities I am cinsidering relocating to and the stats bothered me. People here on the forums do not beleive the stats are coreect though and they do actually live in the area we are asking about.

[jipsee]

Hi sevdie. I sent you a couple of PM's.
Yeah, I wonder about those dang stats. But I've always heard that Burlington is a great place to live, friendly people, cool things to do, music, shops, restaurants, etc. and a beautiful natural setting thrown in as well.

I lived in Seattle for awhile, where the stats didn't lie. I never felt really safe. There is a lot of car theft and burglary, and my car was broken into while I was there. I locked my apartment door all the time, even if I was just unloading the car I locked the door behind me. I have a friend who's only been out there a year and had her car stolen already. It also has an unsettling record of serial killer-type violence. I guess you'll find that in any U.S. city. Of course, the past 10 years have seen an incredible increase in crime there corresponding with increased gang activity, influx of people, and a thriving drug trade. I think that certain neighborhoods, maybe twenty years ago, were rather sleepy. I loved it out there, but as a woman living on her own I felt unsafe.

But, I digress...

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by jipsee

I lived in Seattle for awhile, where the stats didn't lie. I never felt really safe. There is a lot of car theft and burglary, and my car was broken into while I was there. I locked my apartment door all the time, even if I was just unloading the car I locked the door behind me. I have a friend who's only been out there a year and had her car stolen already. It also has an unsettling record of serial killer-type violence. I guess you'll find that in any U.S. city. Of course, the past 10 years have seen an incredible increase in crime there corresponding with increased gang activity, influx of people, and a thriving drug trade.

Yep, yep, yep. We've been in the Seattle/Tacoma area for almost 9 years now. It wasn't great when we moved here, but it has gotten TERRIBLE.

Organized street gangs moved up in a big way in the 90s, catching law enforcement completely by surprise. Law enforcement is fighting a losing battle. Right now, the best they can do is containment, and I think they are even losing that. Even rather well-to-do middle-class neighborhoods are seeing an influx of gang activity.

Crime in VT...

The stats concern me, too, but you have to learn to interpret the stats. A small town with a high rate of assaults can sometimes mean there are a few bars in town that get rowdy on the weekends. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a dangerous place. I've noticed that college towns tend to have a high rate of rapes. Is this date rape? Towns with very high burglary rates can sometimes be indicative of a drug problem in the area --- addicts financing their habit through thievery.

Stats are important. Don't ignore them. But you do have to interpret them.

You should also check out local newspapers, see the kinds of crimes being reported, check the police blotters, etc. Maybe even write an e-mail or call the local police department. Get a firsthand account.

Specifically:

My wife met a woman from Richford, VT a couple of weeks ago. The woman told her that even though Richford is a teeny-tiny rural community, crime has skyrocketed there. They are having a huge problem with illegal drug activity, prostitution, and worse. And it has only started up in the past few years.

So definitely investigate any place before moving in.

[jipsee]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Yep, yep, yep. We've been in the Seattle/Tacoma area for almost 9 years now. It wasn't great when we moved here, but it has gotten TERRIBLE.

Organized street gangs moved up in a big way in the 90s, catching law enforcement completely by surprise. Law enforcement is fighting a losing battle. Right now, the best they can do is containment, and I think they are even losing that. Even rather well-to-do middle-class neighborhoods are seeing an influx of gang activity.

It's so unfortunate, the Seattle/Tacoma area is so beautiful and has so much to offer.

Crime in VT...

The stats concern me, too, but you have to learn to interpret the stats. A small town with a high rate of assaults can sometimes mean there are a few bars in town that get rowdy on the weekends. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a dangerous place. I've noticed that college towns tend to have a high rate of rapes. Is this date rape? Towns with very high burglary rates can sometimes be indicative of a drug problem in the area --- addicts financing their habit through thievery.

I think that it could be date rape..and, if I may speculate, perhaps more partying and risky behavior.

Stats are important. Don't ignore them. But you do have to interpret them.

Oh so true. I've been pm'ing with others and exploring this issue as well. What will be difficult is interpreting exactly what the stats are saying. From reading other posts in the VT forum I've gathered that underlying the seemingly affluent and picturesque view of VT, there are those who can't find a job...and can't afford housing, etc. The flip side of low growth? Certainly these factors could point to an increase in crime.

You should also check out local newspapers, see the kinds of crimes being reported, check the police blotters, etc. Maybe even write an e-mail or call the local police department. Get a firsthand account.

Specifically:

My wife met a woman from Richford, VT a couple of weeks ago. The woman told her that even though Richford is a teeny-tiny rural community, crime has skyrocketed there. They are having a huge problem with illegal drug activity, prostitution, and worse. And it has only started up in the past few years.

[color="Blue"]God, who would figure? You wonder how it gets started in the first place.
So definitely investigate any place before moving in.

Intelligently put, Mark, thank you - great advice.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by jipsee

Oh so true. I've been pm'ing with others and exploring this issue as well. What will be difficult is interpreting exactly what the stats are saying. From reading other posts in the VT forum I've gathered that underlying the seemingly affluent and picturesque view of VT, there are those who can't find a job...and can't afford housing, etc. The flip side of low growth? Certainly these factors could point to an increase in crime.

I suspect that's true. But you know, it's true everywhere. No place is utopia. It becomes a problem when communities ignore it, just hoping it will go away, or worse, when law enforcement becomes complicit with it.

We've given up on Washington State, which is why we are leaving. I don't think it is because communities don't care. The problem here, as near as I can tell, is twofold:

1.) Law enforcement is under-funded. Every time funding goes up for a vote, it gets voted down, because people don't want to pay the higher taxes. (Although they are the first to complain about lack of police.) Where we live, our local law enforcement no longer has a gang unit, even though gangs are a big problem in the community. They used to have one officer, but she was let go due to budget cuts.

2.) Washington State suffers from a bizarre sort of hippy-dippy liberalism. "Soft" on crime? Ha. They're the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. One of our local drug dealers is in and out of jail all the time. No matter how many times get gets picked up for assault, pimping, or peddling crack, he has never served more than four months in jail.

[jipsee]

HA, hippy-dippy liberalism...I love it. I read in one of your other posts about your views on this modern liberalism. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you said that there were two kinds of liberalism?
I saw it too when I lived out there. I recall having a discussion with some co-workers about punishment for crime. They were all for rights of the criminals, and rehabbing them instead of punishing them. I was the only one who felt that punishment should be a deterrent to crime, otherwise why bother? Criminals will just keep on offending. I wish we could rehab all offenders, but it just isn't realistic. And I really do believe that some criminals are not rehabilitatable (is that a word?) We don't have the time, money and resources. I think it might be part of the whole "victimhood" consciousness that has affected our society, where if you do something wrong, it's not your fault, someone else must be to blame. It's trending toward a tendency in people to not accept responsibility for their actions...very scary.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by jipsee

HA, hippy-dippy liberalism...I love it. I read in one of your other posts about your views on this modern liberalism. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you said that there were two kinds of liberalism?

Well, that's just my own take on it. But I think I'm right.

There is the classic kind of liberalism. Live and let live. Liberty and justice for all. Help your neighbors. Defend the rights of those who can't defend themselves. Thomas Jefferson liberalism.

Then there is the hippy-dippy liberalism. (Sometimes called California liberalism.) They're the busybodies, who not only have their own view of the world but demand that everyone else have the same view. They are the type who pass a homeless guy on the street and rush past, thinking that the government really ought to do something about that, while they head off to Starbuck's to demand their double-decaff latte. I don't have much patience for these pop culture liberals.

[deeptrance]

Mark S. -- I wish you could meet my brother, he would love your posts. I'm going to send him the link to this forum. He is a baker northeast of Montpelier (Bohemian Bread) and he's all about the progressive "mind your own business" ways that are so common among people with cottage industries in Vermont. I love that about the state, it really does have thriving little pockets of semi-self-sufficiency, yea though it would come crashing down without such "imports" as oil, electricity, and tourist dollars.

I'd live in VT in a heartbeat but I prefer heat, hence I'm in Austin, TX. Quite a contrast, yes indeed, but politically quite compatible with VT in many ways.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

Mark S. -- I wish you could meet my brother, he would love your posts. I'm going to send him the link to this forum.

Excellent!

Originally Posted by deeptrance

I'd live in VT in a heartbeat but I prefer heat, hence I'm in Austin, TX. Quite a contrast, yes indeed, but politically quite compatible with VT in many ways.

I can't take the heat. Anything over 80 degrees, and I'm done for.

But I have to admit that Austin is a very nice town. It's been 15 years or more since I was last there, but it's a great city. But next time I go, it'll have to be in the winter.