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Unread 03-30-2012, 08:35 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,066,494 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK1 View Post
Are you saying that transplants drive the cost of housing up because it has become increasingly scarce as the population has grown? Or that transplants with liberal political agendas have changed things for the worse?

Yes to both. Both of these issues are well known facts to native Vermonters. (I'm not but my girlfriend is and many of my good friends are.) Look at the demographics of the state. More than half the state is now out-of-state born residents. Coincidence that half the state lives off 12/hr?

I guess the politics are a mixed bag. It's driven up taxes, I'm sure, but it's also provided schools in poor towns with the money needed for high-quality educational programs they couldn't afford 20 years ago before Act 60/62/68.

Yes and no. School enrollement has been plummeting here for the past 15 years. The youth is fleeing the state in epidemic numbers. We have the oldest U.S population. Education spending here has been rampant and out of control with poor results. The test scores here are pathetic for what we spend when factoring in teacher to student ratios.

The state has some serious problems to deal with in the future. The population is aging by the minute and with the youth leaving the state in such huge numbers. There is going to be no working class left to pay for it.
While school enrollment overall has shrunk, it has grown in more desirable areas such as Burlington and Stowe. Also, if you just look at raw test scores, things look dismal. But, Vermont students still lead the nation when it comes to proficiency in math and reading (I believe we are in the top 5 for both) and we are second behind N.J. when it comes to the percentage of students who graduate from high school. There are some interesting reports with this data on the dept of education website.

Also, there was an article in Seven Days last year that showed that while many young people are leaving Vermont, they're being replaced by richer middle-aged people. So financially, according to the story, it's a wash.

You're right about it being an old state (I believe we're second behind N.H) but I don't think you can blame flatlanders for that. My theory is that a lot of young people choose to live together without having children and a lot of married people don't have kids or only have one or two max. So, we're not creating enough kids to replace the older generation as they die off.

Other places where people tend to have lots of kids like the Deep South and Utah are seeing their populations increase, though things have slowed a bit since the recession started.
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Unread 03-30-2012, 09:58 PM
 
843 posts, read 1,631,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaMc46 View Post
While school enrollment overall has shrunk, it has grown in more desirable areas such as Burlington and Stowe. Also, if you just look at raw test scores, things look dismal. But, Vermont students still lead the nation when it comes to proficiency in math and reading (I believe we are in the top 5 for both) and we are second behind N.J. when it comes to the percentage of students who graduate from high school. There are some interesting reports with this data on the dept of education website.

Also, there was an article in Seven Days last year that showed that while many young people are leaving Vermont, they're being replaced by richer middle-aged people. So financially, according to the story, it's a wash.

You're right about it being an old state (I believe we're second behind N.H) but I don't think you can blame flatlanders for that. My theory is that a lot of young people choose to live together without having children and a lot of married people don't have kids or only have one or two max. So, we're not creating enough kids to replace the older generation as they die off.

Other places where people tend to have lots of kids like the Deep South and Utah are seeing their populations increase, though things have slowed a bit since the recession started.
Very insightful analysis. I just don't understand the lure of Vermont for those rich middle aged people. On most lists, Vermont ranks as one of the worst states for retirees, tax-wise, not to mention the weather. I guess if you're a big-time skier, and if you get too old for that, you can always apres ski at one of the swankier resorts, but that seems like an odd rationale for retiring someplace.

I think it's more the proximity to urban areas in MA, NY, NJ and people love to flee from those states for a variety of reasons. The south is full of them. But if you don't want to move too far away from family and friends, I suppose Vermont is a good compromise.
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Unread 03-31-2012, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Vermont
530 posts, read 513,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4home View Post
On most lists, Vermont ranks as one of the worst states for retirees, tax-wise, not to mention the weather.
A poorer retiree will fare better. Those lists never mention the property rebate in Vermont, which lowers my tax from $2600 to $600. And these benefits help all levels of homeowners in Vermont. The weather is bearable in the winter and wonderful in the spring, summer and fall. The towns maintain their historic character, the scenery is breathtaking and crime really very low. Vermonters help each other. There are not a whole lot of places in this country like Vermont, but you only really discover it when you have lived here awhile.
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Unread 03-31-2012, 06:17 AM
 
438 posts, read 303,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4home View Post
I just don't understand the lure of Vermont for those rich middle aged people. On most lists, Vermont ranks as one of the worst states for retirees, tax-wise, not to mention the weather. I guess if you're a big-time skier, and if you get too old for that, you can always apres ski at one of the swankier resorts, but that seems like an odd rationale for retiring someplace.
Not many people choose to retire here, but it seems like it because the state population is so small. If it were really attractive to retirees, the population could be double or triple what it is now. I chose Vermont because it's rural, pretty, and progressive. There are few other states with that combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4home View Post
I think it's more the proximity to urban areas in MA, NY, NJ and people love to flee from those states for a variety of reasons. The south is full of them. But if you don't want to move too far away from family and friends, I suppose Vermont is a good compromise.
I came from Illinois and know others who have.
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Unread 03-31-2012, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Colchester, Vt
1,745 posts, read 2,259,197 times
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It is true that wealthier middle age people move in state while the youth are leaving, but to say everyone that is middle aged or even most middle aged people moving in state is hard to believe. These forums, while not a reliable source of information show just as many people of lower income or to take advantage of the states social programs are moving in as well. If you take everything into consideration (wealthy moving in, poor or middle class moving in, youth leaving, poor paying jobs) it is a wash for this point in time. The issue is the middle aged will not be here long term. Our government needs to make the state more attractive for business and our youth. The opposite is happening now. An example from this past week were the lawsuits filed against the state for attempting to tax many businesses for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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Unread 03-31-2012, 11:42 AM
 
843 posts, read 1,631,098 times
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The two posts by pauldorell and 68vette summerize the problems that plague Vermont and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 05:31 AM
 
166 posts, read 239,835 times
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I don't think many of you realize just how much of the youth is leaving this state. Vermont is doomed unless it at least attempts to attract its youth here. It is a major issue of VT's future and there are endless reports out there to back it up.

I can't even begin to tell you how many people I know in their mid to late 20's that are leaving the state. Majority who are native Vermonters. It seems like every person I know that has the means to leave the state is. I can report that most who have I here nothing but good things about how much better they are doing job wise.

The way things are especially with the current lawmakers VT is screwed.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Maine
40 posts, read 45,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell View Post
If you blocked off the roads, then Vermont could become a theme park for very rich people with helicopters. Residents would be required to wear colonial clothes, make maple syrup and recite Robert Frost poems. Everyone living in the mountains would sing and go by the name of von Trapp. Rich Chinese would pay top dollar.
This has a hint if Racism that doesn't seem to bother anyone else. People just love to make fun of people with money, never mind that many people work their tails off their whole lives for it. While not a wealthy person, i love to be a tourist whenever I can, leaving the depressing area that I live in the be around some natural beauty. Tourism boosts the economy and enables many small business owners to stay afloat. Exploring should be celebrated and not ridiculed. My home town in NH depends on tourism to keep its vibrant downtown bustling through all of the wintery months, and travelers are always welcome. Besides, bringing in people of different races and ethnicities helps break the cycle of racism subtly present here.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 07:38 AM
 
48 posts, read 43,535 times
Reputation: 33
Default The State Of The Union

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfchick View Post
This has a hint if Racism that doesn't seem to bother anyone else. People just love to make fun of people with money, never mind that many people work their tails off their whole lives for it. While not a wealthy person, i love to be a tourist whenever I can, leaving the depressing area that I live in the be around some natural beauty. Tourism boosts the economy and enables many small business owners to stay afloat. Exploring should be celebrated and not ridiculed. My home town in NH depends on tourism to keep its vibrant downtown bustling through all of the wintery months, and travelers are always welcome. Besides, bringing in people of different races and ethnicities helps break the cycle of racism subtly present here.
Racism? Not so much.

But hey, check this out. I was in the market for a camping cot this week and saw Byers of Maine on a number of websites. Some even reported that their cots were made in the U.S.A. After a lot of searching I finally found one in a REI store and drove 60 miles to go pick it up.

Boy was I surprised to see "Handcrafted in China" on the box. Needless to say I didn't buy it.

Quote:
1999 brought the beginning of a transformation when Jay Shields was in Cologne, Germany in support of the European distributor of Byer Camp Furniture who was exhibiting at the Spoga Trade Fair, the outdoor furniture show for Europe. At that show, we found a wonderful line of colorful Brazilian hammocks brought to world markets by Amazonas of Munich. That chance encounter opened our eyes to the opportunities and inevitability of sourcing products offshore. A few hammock samples brought back in a suitcase have expanded to an ever broadening assortment of products for the outdoors. Today, we offer the wonderful hammocks and hanging chairs from Brazil and China; strong aluminum frame cots and stools from China; and Pangean camp furniture from Vietnam. 2006 brought the introduction of birding products from Byer and today we offer an expanding line of bird homes and feeders from China and soon from Thailand.
About Byer of Maine - Byer of Maine

So while it may not be palatable; if the shoe fits we have to wear it.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 08:54 AM
 
438 posts, read 303,531 times
Reputation: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfchick View Post
This has a hint if Racism that doesn't seem to bother anyone else. People just love to make fun of people with money, never mind that many people work their tails off their whole lives for it.
Racism is often in the eye of the beholder. Apparently it didn't occur to you that in a few years rich Chinese may be coming to the U.S. in droves in much the same way that newly rich Japanese tourists began coming here in the 1970's. Perhaps you think San Franciscan political correctness is universal. It isn't.

Not all tourists are bad, but when I travel abroad I tend to avoid American tourists, because they are often obese, loud, culturally insensitive and ignorant. The Han Chinese have already demonstrated some of these characteristics on their vacations in Tibet, and they are likely to do so here. They seem to accept the theme park idea and have already created one for rich Western tourists on the Yangtze.

Disapproval of rich people has a strong historical foundation in the West and isn't likely to disappear any time soon. What do you think of the following statement? "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." That feeling is fully in evidence in these Vermont threads, where the influx of wealthy "flatlanders" is often seen by native Vermonters as a serious source of problems.
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