Vermont's future and the youth fleeing the state. (Springfield, Montpelier: sales, hair salon)
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NH seems to be a bit different. The youth are fleeing nearly all of the more rural counties, but staying in the southern and southeast parts of the state as well as the Upper Valley.
NH seems to be a bit different. The youth are fleeing nearly all of the more rural counties, but staying in the southern and southeast parts of the state as well as the Upper Valley.
Interesting. Most of my son's friends from Lebanon High have stayed here in the Upper Valley, even after graduating college. My son chose to leave Burlington after college, to Boston. I wished he had stayed here, but the job opportunities were just so much better in Boston, in his field. Many of his co-workers commute from Manchester.
Interesting. Most of my son's friends from Lebanon High have stayed here in the Upper Valley, even after graduating college. My son chose to leave Burlington after college, to Boston. I wished he had stayed here, but the job opportunities were just so much better in Boston, in his field. Many of his co-workers commute from Manchester.
That sounds about right. Many live in southern NH and work in Mass, but that can get tiresome and expensive for those that don't like commuting. The Upper Valley on the NH side has a fairly good job market, especially those in the healthcare field and all of the spinoff and ancillary industries that support it. Grafton County, NH registered a 13% increase in jobs between 2000-2009 which is well above the state and regional average.
I'd like to see a study of how many of those who left came back. I know a lot of my high school classmates (as well as myself) all left Vermont but now a lot of us have made our way back.
I'd like to see a study of how many of those who left came back. I know a lot of my high school classmates (as well as myself) all left Vermont but now a lot of us have made our way back.
Some do come back I am sure. Majority who are probably wealthy and have trust funds.
However, most leave and never look back. There are just no jobs here. 10-15 years ago a home cost half what it does as it does now but there has been ZERO job growth in the last 10 years in VT. A younger family trying to start a life/family here is unattainable with current wages/cost of living.
Disapproval of rich people has a strong historical foundation in the West and isn't likely to disappear any time soon. What do you think of the following statement? "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." That feeling is fully in evidence in these Vermont threads, where the influx of wealthy "flatlanders" is often seen by native Vermonters as a serious source of problems.
Paul I think it is oversimplifying to see the resentment that is expressed here as being directed toward wealth. Wealth is not the issue; it's the attitude that the perceived "quality of life" of those who have overrides the needs of those who are willing and able to work but increasingly find that jobs are scarce and/or low paying. If you couple that with the perception of Vermont as a place that will take care of those who have no means to take care of themselves, it becomes bizarre to those of us who remember the days when anyone who was willing and able to work could also have a decent life.
NH actually has the highest per capita number of millionaires, but they don't seem to be out to destroy the state's economy the way the transplants in Vermont are.
Paul I think it is oversimplifying to see the resentment that is expressed here as being directed toward wealth. Wealth is not the issue; it's the attitude that the perceived "quality of life" of those who have overrides the needs of those who are willing and able to work but increasingly find that jobs are scarce and/or low paying. If you couple that with the perception of Vermont as a place that will take care of those who have no means to take care of themselves, it becomes bizarre to those of us who remember the days when anyone who was willing and able to work could also have a decent life.
NH actually has the highest per capita number of millionaires, but they don't seem to be out to destroy the state's economy the way the transplants in Vermont are.
It's the people who are seen as a problem, not their wealth per se, though that is usually what empowers them. Well-off outsiders often have priorities for Vermont that are different from those of those of the natives. You seem to be most bothered by a perceived anti-business mentality. Some people coming here don't want to change the rural landscape and replace it with development, which many of the locals might prefer. Someone can move here from a major urban area where the pay standards are significantly higher and buy property at what is a bargain price compared to what they're used to. Meanwhile, that property may be beyond the reach of a Vermonter who is working three jobs to get by. I think that causes a certain amount of resentment, though people adapt over time. In some ways it resembles an invasion. To this day there is a deep subtext of resentment in England that started with the Norman invasion of the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. There are a few posters here who treat Burlington like a captured territory that is now part of New York.
The situation in New Hampshire is a lot different from Vermont, because New Hampshire is closer to the heavily populated areas of Massachusetts. Many of the people and businesses in New Hampshire are there as a result of a conscious effort to escape "The People's Republic of Taxachusetts." If you could physically flip Vermont and New Hampshire along the Connecticut River, all things being equal I think Vermont would turn out just like New Hampshire. Something similar happened in Fairfield County, Connecticut years ago.
P.S. This article is a good case in point on some of these issues: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/14/us...idents.html?hp. Non-native Vermonters are opposing a new store in Chester. But the picture is complicated by the fact that for many businesses Vermont is a "brand" that has to maintain a certain appearance in order to keep drawing customers. Either way, a new Dollar General store isn't going to have much of an impact on the employment opportunities in Chester.
That sounds about right. Many live in southern NH and work in Mass, but that can get tiresome and expensive for those that don't like commuting. The Upper Valley on the NH side has a fairly good job market, especially those in the healthcare field and all of the spinoff and ancillary industries that support it. Grafton County, NH registered a 13% increase in jobs between 2000-2009 which is well above the state and regional average.
A big part of his decision was social (a girl in Boston). He could have easily found a job in the Upper Valley, and was offered a full- time job in Burlington at the company where he worked through college. He would have made roughly
the same money in Burlington as he does in Boston, and in the Upper Valley as well, but he's young, with a girlfriend in Boston and I guess he wanted to sample the city life. Can't blame him, as I lived for 40 years in NYC/Long Island. It will be interesting to see if he comes back to settle when he has a family.
He works as a software engineer, and I also worked in the software industry in the Upper Valley for 20 years....no lack of well-paying jobs here on that end, nor in Burlington, from what I hear from his friends who graduated and stayed there.
It's the people who are seen as a problem, not their wealth per se, though that is usually what empowers them. Well-off outsiders often have priorities for Vermont that are different from those of those of the natives. You seem to be most bothered by a perceived anti-business mentality. Some people coming here don't want to change the rural landscape and replace it with development, which many of the locals might prefer. Someone can move here from a major urban area where the pay standards are significantly higher and buy property at what is a bargain price compared to what they're used to. Meanwhile, that property may be beyond the reach of a Vermonter who is working three jobs to get by. I think that causes a certain amount of resentment, though people adapt over time. In some ways it resembles an invasion. To this day there is a deep subtext of resentment in England that started with the Norman invasion of the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. There are a few posters here who treat Burlington like a captured territory that is now part of New York.
The situation in New Hampshire is a lot different from Vermont, because New Hampshire is closer to the heavily populated areas of Massachusetts. Many of the people and businesses in New Hampshire are there as a result of a conscious effort to escape "The People's Republic of Taxachusetts." If you could physically flip Vermont and New Hampshire along the Connecticut River, all things being equal I think Vermont would turn out just like New Hampshire. Something similar happened in Fairfield County, Connecticut years ago.
I agree almost 100 % with your assessment. The only things I see differently are that not all of the NH sprawl spilling up from Rt 128 is from Mass inhabitants consciously seeking to avoid the nanny state and its exorbitant taxes. Some are simply looking for a cheap place to live and are willing to take a horrendous commute as the price they pay. I am also not sure if Vermont would have turned out like NH if the states had been switched around. There is a saying that the early settlers from the Pioneer Valley came up the Connecticut river to settle northern New England. Some turned Left and settled Vermont. Some turned Right and settled New Hampshire. VT has traditionally been more environmentally conscious and more "progressive" than the Granite State. VT was among the first states to have a bottle and can deposit, ban billboards, etc. Not that there aren't cantankerous Yankees in both states, but VT has had the crunchy thing for decades. NH has always been more of a place that doesn't go out of its way to take care of those needing assistance (you don't see homeless and welfare seekers traipsing to NH the way they do to VT). And at least on a state level, NH is far more business friendly. I suspect that if the VT mentality had been in the NH location, resistance to the sprawl would have been greater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell
P.S. This article is a good case in point on some of these issues: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/14/us...idents.html?hp. Non-native Vermonters are opposing a new store in Chester. But the picture is complicated by the fact that for many businesses Vermont is a "brand" that has to maintain a certain appearance in order to keep drawing customers. Either way, a new Dollar General store isn't going to have much of an impact on the employment opportunities in Chester.
As usual, the NYT completely missed the point. Articles written about Vermont by journalists from the larger East Coast cities for the NYT and BG tend to be worthless. They drive through town, take a few photos, drop a few cliches, and write whatever their readers want to read without doing their homework.
You are absolutely right that a Dollar Store isn't going to impact employment opportunities in Chester. That is because Chester doesn't have a population desperate for minimum wage jobs. Chester is close enough to Ludlow to benefit from the ski resort aura, and cultivates the quaint image. Chester was never a shop town so they don't have that many options. By the way Chester also does not impose a capital assets tax on its businesses. In short, Chester is doing quite well, and it is only a 10 mile drive to Springfield, which has plenty of shopping opportunities for groceries and items that need to be bought on a weekly basis. As a matter of fact Springfield has both a Dollar Store and a Dollar General that sell enough crap to take care of all the surroundig communities. I'm surprised that DG thinks they would do well in a place like Chester. Maybe they think the tourists will buy their junk.
Just as an aside, Dollar General and similar stores sell out and out junk. I would not purchase anything there that is ingested or even put into my mouth (like toothpaste) because their goods come to the US from the grey market from who-knows-where. I can't blame Chester for not wanting an ugly box store that sells crap from China there. Chester is a lovely community that doesn't need stores that cater to the welfare crowd.
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I agree almost 100 % with your assessment. The only things I see differently are that not all of the NH sprawl spilling up from Rt 128 is from Mass inhabitants consciously seeking to avoid the nanny state and its exorbitant taxes. Some are simply looking for a cheap place to live and are willing to take a horrendous commute as the price they pay. I am also not sure if Vermont would have turned out like NH if the states had been switched around. There is a saying that the early settlers from the Pioneer Valley came up the Connecticut river to settle northern New England. Some turned Left and settled Vermont. Some turned Right and settled New Hampshire. VT has traditionally been more environmentally conscious and more "progressive" than the Granite State. VT was among the first states to have a bottle and can deposit, ban billboards, etc. Not that there aren't cantankerous Yankees in both states, but VT has had the crunchy thing for decades. NH has always been more of a place that doesn't go out of its way to take care of those needing assistance (you don't see homeless and welfare seekers traipsing to NH the way they do to VT). And at least on a state level, NH is far more business friendly. I suspect that if the VT mentality had been in the NH location, resistance to the sprawl would have been greater.
