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Old 03-13-2012, 03:55 PM
 
866 posts, read 900,995 times
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The classic farmers method was to drop the large, dying trees during the year. It cleared out canopy for other trees to grow. The dropped trees were then dragged in for firewood.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
520 posts, read 963,074 times
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Quote:
I consider myself a conservationist not an environmentalist. I think Gifford Pinchot had the right idea on management, even if it wasn't possible to do so right in the political climate of his time. I love nature, but, I think it better to use reason than emotion when managing things. There's room for ATV's, snowmobiles, logging, hunting, hiking, etc., etc., but the environmentalists would have people see otherwise. There have in the past been pushes to have the whole state made into a park, just as they're pushing in Northern Maine for that. That's overboard. There are places that should be very heavily protected, but I think such places are quite scarce in New England.
I agree. As someone who works in conservation, I see the extremes of both sides: the people who want to simply "take" whatever the environment offers, make money from it, and use the land as they see fit, and those who want the world to be a gigantic national park, untouched and pristine.

Many people on those extreme fringes don't understand that there needs to be balance, that land can be "used" IF it's managed responsibly. And their propaganda confuses a lot of folks in the middle areas, who may agree with them on some points but who aren't quite sure, overall.

Once constant seems to be the fact that no environmental issue is ever taken very seriously from the outset. It's almost always ignored or downplayed until it can't be any longer - or until it's too late.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,995 posts, read 11,650,262 times
Reputation: 5580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaroundabit View Post
I agree. As someone who works in conservation, I see the extremes of both sides: the people who want to simply "take" whatever the environment offers, make money from it, and use the land as they see fit, and those who want the world to be a gigantic national park, untouched and pristine.

Many people on those extreme fringes don't understand that there needs to be balance, that land can be "used" IF it's managed responsibly. And their propaganda confuses a lot of folks in the middle areas, who may agree with them on some points but who aren't quite sure, overall.

Once constant seems to be the fact that no environmental issue is ever taken very seriously from the outset. It's almost always ignored or downplayed until it can't be any longer - or until it's too late.
This is very true, isn't it? Makes it harder to be sensible and moderate.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:02 AM
 
459 posts, read 906,079 times
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Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
Just feel like stirring the pot today. I was reading a paper about land use, and I recall a group that wanted to do some "vision for biodiversity" in VT, and some of the timber, private property groups were fired up. Sounded like S. Oregon. Here, water is for fishing and forests are for fighting over. Most of our local folks are pro-timber, and most of our environmentalists are exurban folks who want to vibrate in the old forests. We rarely see eye to eye and the stalemate has lasted a generation, since the hippies arrived in the 1960s.

I guess I always thought New England was more moderate on these issues with both the left and right showing a bit more restraint and common sense. However, I recall I ended up arguing with some very feisty conservative anti-environment types on the Maine forum last year. The whole north woods park issue (some yahoos from Massachusetts are leading that, what a surprise. Locals don't like it, what a surprise).

So, how does it go in Vermont. Are environmentalists home grown? Imported? Extreme? Sensible? All of the above? How do most folks feel about them.

I am very conservation-oriented myself, but I don't really mind logging, and I think working landscapes can have abundant beauty, clean air and water, and wildlife. The details are in the practice of forestry and agriculture. Neither strikes me as inherently bad.
Most of the wacky liberalism in VT is imported from NJ/NY/MA.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Live - VT, Work - MA
819 posts, read 1,267,570 times
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Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
If you clearcut here, in 10 years you'll have a forest without any work. Some animal species need clearcutting, either by logging or fire. Some trees don't regenerate unless an area is cleared either. It's not so cut and dry with clearcutting.
Amen.

People that rail against logging and "clearcutting" don't really undserstand how forests work and regenerate. There can be responsible clearcutting and it doesn't have to mean leveling 100 acres at a clip.

People in the Berks got all bent out of shape over a "clearcutting" spot on state land of which I am very familiar.......the plot couldn't have been more than 15 acres total. Two years later, you'll find plenty growing and so many animals are living within the cutting now it is outstanding.

I am pro-logging, but I am all about doing it right.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:05 PM
 
444 posts, read 684,204 times
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Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs View Post
I am pro-logging, but I am all about doing it right.
As a wood burner, I have to be pro-logging. This part of the country is different from the West Coast, which still has a lot of old growth forests. If there were still 500-year-old-plus trees around here, I'd hate to see them cut down. My house has 22" floor boards, and trees like that are probably long gone.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Winter Springs, FL
1,789 posts, read 4,059,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs View Post
Amen.

People that rail against logging and "clearcutting" don't really undserstand how forests work and regenerate. There can be responsible clearcutting and it doesn't have to mean leveling 100 acres at a clip.

People in the Berks got all bent out of shape over a "clearcutting" spot on state land of which I am very familiar.......the plot couldn't have been more than 15 acres total. Two years later, you'll find plenty growing and so many animals are living within the cutting now it is outstanding.

I am pro-logging, but I am all about doing it right.
Not everyone remembers a bit of VT history. Years ago when the state was primarily a sheep farming state, most of the land was without trees. I believe several of the historic societies have photos of how bare the land was.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:28 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 2,046,685 times
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Originally Posted by 68vette View Post
Not everyone remembers a bit of VT history. Years ago when the state was primarily a sheep farming state, most of the land was without trees. I believe several of the historic societies have photos of how bare the land was.
Yes. If you visit the Historical Society in Montpelier, many areas that are forested now were pasture land throughout the 19th century. The forest will naturally regenerate if left alone for a few decades.

In regards to the OP, I'm glad that environmentalists have protected VT from looking like another New Jersey with ugly over development and hideous billboards all over the place.

But, at the same time, I think that the Act 250 process is so ornerous that it discourages companies from moving here and bringing good-paying jobs and tax money. And then there are things that are just ridiculous like the decades of debate over the Circ Highway. Or, that giant open park/green space behind the movie theater in Williston resulting in too few parking spaces for theater patrons who must then park in spaces meant for the surrounding restaurants and shops. It just doesn't make sense.

It also discourages new affordable housing from being built (because of the permitting costs) and actually encourages sprawl b/c much of the new housing outside of the Burlington area is built on lots of 10 or more acres.
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Randolph, VT
72 posts, read 85,349 times
Reputation: 60
Default sprawl

Lisa, re. the Williston theatre, how long has it been there? Is parking a new or old problem?

I ask because, investigating Randolph, a town I would like to move to, I came across the fact that the Catholic church there built a whole new edifice on five acres of land outside the town, at a cost of $800,000 and with a mortgage of $700,000. This was (according to their web site) in order to address the problem of parking at their old location.

How many masses does this church serve each week?

A whopping two (2). ONE on Saturday and ONE on Sunday.

My husband's parish in Rome holds two masses PER DAY, with at least 5 on Sunday. There is NO parking available. If a bank gave them $700k, they would plotz. If the Randolph priest had thought to hold 5 masses on Sunday, his parking problems per event would have shrunk to 20%, or maybe 40% as an outlier.

This is a weird "football stadium" notion common to modern America: that increasingly large buildings can be used for increasingly rare but increasingly intensive purposes, and that we must provide 120% or more of any foreseeable parking needs or else…

Taken as public and planning policy, this pushes buildings farther apart and creates sprawl. Sprawl then creates the need to drive everywhere, which creates the need for more parking, which creates further sprawl, etc.

[I don't think this is a Vermont problem; it's an everywhere problem.]

Maybe we can get around seeming obstacles with a little common sense, flexibility, or adaptation? Rather than just extending more asphalt, I mean.
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:27 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 2,046,685 times
Reputation: 1486
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina View Post
Lisa, re. the Williston theatre, how long has it been there? Is parking a new or old problem?

I ask because, investigating Randolph, a town I would like to move to, I came across the fact that the Catholic church there built a whole new edifice on five acres of land outside the town, at a cost of $800,000 and with a mortgage of $700,000. This was (according to their web site) in order to address the problem of parking at their old location.

How many masses does this church serve each week?

A whopping two (2). ONE on Saturday and ONE on Sunday.

My husband's parish in Rome holds two masses PER DAY, with at least 5 on Sunday. There is NO parking available. If a bank gave them $700k, they would plotz. If the Randolph priest had thought to hold 5 masses on Sunday, his parking problems per event would have shrunk to 20%, or maybe 40% as an outlier.

This is a weird "football stadium" notion common to modern America: that increasingly large buildings can be used for increasingly rare but increasingly intensive purposes, and that we must provide 120% or more of any foreseeable parking needs or else…

Taken as public and planning policy, this pushes buildings farther apart and creates sprawl. Sprawl then creates the need to drive everywhere, which creates the need for more parking, which creates further sprawl, etc.

[I don't think this is a Vermont problem; it's an everywhere problem.]

Maybe we can get around seeming obstacles with a little common sense, flexibility, or adaptation? Rather than just extending more asphalt, I mean.
It's been a problem --- at least in my opinion --- since we've lived here (10 years). I don't know when it was built. It's a very weird shopping plaza with stores ranging from Men's Warehouse to Christmas Tree Shoppes, plus smaller restaurants and shops. They are all surrounded by various parking lots with narrow roadways connecting them.

It's a poorly designed mess, in my opinion.

My guess is that whoever built it decided that the theater patrons could just use the other parking areas since most people go to the movies at night when the surrounding stores are closed. But if you have the misfortune of going to the shopping plaza on a Saturday afternoon, as many of us who work do, it can be difficult to find a parking space b/c of all the people there to see the matinees.

Interesting story about your husband's parish. There's a huge non-denominational church in Essex that has spent years jumping through hoops to build a larger facility b/c of issues like that. I think they've finally gotten the permits.
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