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Trust me, it isn't that I disagree on many of your points; I just wanted to present the other side of the discussion as it is rare to get the corporate perspective in internet discussions. The "emotional" comment wasn't necessarily directed at any one person in particular.
Many of these "big box evil go away" type discussions typically characterize the corporate entity as some big bad evil giant with evil intentions. When in reality they just want to make money, through the same means as the mom & pop down the street. The reality is the big bad corporate giant employs a boatload of people and their profits are probably funding your retirement plan as we speak. Again, it is just another perspective.
If there is a legitimate reason to not build anything where the proposed site is located then it is what it is.
If the proposed plan is totally against the town plan as voted on by the town, then by all means oppose it.
Again, I find the discussion interesting because as I mentioned before Vermont can be such a conflicted state.
Yes Vermont is conflicted.
Earlier in this thread you had mentioned something about a hypothetical box store buying a 300 acre farm and developing 30 acres. You've mentioned spoke and hub -- instead of making a Williston-sized over-developed area rife with tech parks -- situate these research/tech facilities in such a way that they are X miles from either the college, other research park, and/or city/large town.
If this 300 acre farm were purchased for a research facility (off shoot of Dartmouth, Yale, UVM, etc.) which created a small, self contained campus with housing (cluster type to preserve land) and perhaps a small landing strip or helicopter pad) I would be for it. Center the facility plunk in the middle, allow as much acreage for buffer to maintain the rural look. It can be done. We have Renaissance Technologies in Setauket, NY; it is not even visible from the main road (which has existed since the colonial era) and contributes greatly to the local economy.
The owner of Renaissance Techonologies hires very well-educated people, pays them very well. They've settled in the area, buy homes, remodel them, furnish them, hire landscapers, cooks, house cleaners, interior designers, support the arts, dine out, purchase big ticket items.
Mr. Simons and Ren Tech aren't easy to come by; in this case, Mr. Simons was a math professor at the local university before hitting it big with his mathematical model for investing and hedge funds.
With all these allegedly intelligent people in Montpelier, why don't he go out and court the state's (and neighboring states) universities and colleges and create research centers such as the one which was built most recently near my home? Center of Excellence in Wireless and Information Technology
Research centers = patents = money
More research centers = more researchers earning good money = more people to support the local economy
A research or technology center will attract people who have the education and experience to thrive and prosper. They in turn will need the services of those who are experienced in other ways (service people, restaurants, grocers, home furnishings, contractors, etc.) which will cause them to need to hire laborers, waitresses, stock people, etc.
Long story short -- creating or bringing in businesses which require educated/skilled people will create more job opportunities for those with limited or no skills. Bringing in retail dollar store sales jobs where the employees are earning minimum wage (or perhaps a little higher) will only create more dollar store consumers.
Yes, Vermont is a conflicted state. I believe it has made great strides in preserving the land -- you can't get that back when it is gone -- but needs to look into clever ways to 'grow' and retain something other than retail business and do it in a way which is in harmony with preserving the environment.
Am I idealistic? Too simplistic? Am I missing something?
Earlier in this thread you had mentioned something about a hypothetical box store buying a 300 acre farm and developing 30 acres. You've mentioned spoke and hub -- instead of making a Williston-sized over-developed area rife with tech parks -- situate these research/tech facilities in such a way that they are X miles from either the college, other research park, and/or city/large town.
If this 300 acre farm were purchased for a research facility (off shoot of Dartmouth, Yale, UVM, etc.) which created a small, self contained campus with housing (cluster type to preserve land) and perhaps a small landing strip or helicopter pad) I would be for it. Center the facility plunk in the middle, allow as much acreage for buffer to maintain the rural look. It can be done. We have Renaissance Technologies in Setauket, NY; it is not even visible from the main road (which has existed since the colonial era) and contributes greatly to the local economy.
The owner of Renaissance Techonologies hires very well-educated people, pays them very well. They've settled in the area, buy homes, remodel them, furnish them, hire landscapers, cooks, house cleaners, interior designers, support the arts, dine out, purchase big ticket items.
Mr. Simons and Ren Tech aren't easy to come by; in this case, Mr. Simons was a math professor at the local university before hitting it big with his mathematical model for investing and hedge funds.
With all these allegedly intelligent people in Montpelier, why don't he go out and court the state's (and neighboring states) universities and colleges and create research centers such as the one which was built most recently near my home? Center of Excellence in Wireless and Information Technology
Research centers = patents = money
More research centers = more researchers earning good money = more people to support the local economy
A research or technology center will attract people who have the education and experience to thrive and prosper. They in turn will need the services of those who are experienced in other ways (service people, restaurants, grocers, home furnishings, contractors, etc.) which will cause them to need to hire laborers, waitresses, stock people, etc.
Long story short -- creating or bringing in businesses which require educated/skilled people will create more job opportunities for those with limited or no skills. Bringing in retail dollar store sales jobs where the employees are earning minimum wage (or perhaps a little higher) will only create more dollar store consumers.
Yes, Vermont is a conflicted state. I believe it has made great strides in preserving the land -- you can't get that back when it is gone -- but needs to look into clever ways to 'grow' and retain something other than retail business and do it in a way which is in harmony with preserving the environment.
Am I idealistic? Too simplistic? Am I missing something?
I like the idea of bringing better paying jobs to the state. But, a research center could lead to sprawl. My inlaws live outside of Raleigh, NC, which is one big research center. Two decades ago it was mostly farmland. Then came the pharmacy and technology research centers. Then came hundreds of thousands of people looking for jobs and the slower pace of life associated with the South.
Farmland was developed into cookie-cutter McMansion neighborhoods. Small towns became vanilla suburbs. Country roads became highways with never-ending strip malls on either side. Big box stores and chain restaurants popped up everywhere to please the transplants for NJ and NY. There are two wal-marts in my in-law's average-sized town and countless fast-food joints. Historic downtowns fell into disrepair.
Sure there are lots of good paying jobs that didn't exist a few decades ago, but the area looks like most of NJ or Long Island. Every time we go down to visit it's more congested a little more southern charm has been lost. My husband and I considered moving there years ago but I'd be hesitant now because of the ugliness.
I'm not saying your idea is a bad, or that Vermont doesn't have laws in place to prevent what happened in NC from happening here. I'm just saying that any such plans should be approached with foresight and caution.
Oh I don't think your are being too simplistic necessarily, the key is the politicians view of things and goals. I believe Vermont is one of the least business friendly states around. It's hard to attract quality employers in the scale required in the current environment.
The other tough part of the argument around the hypothetical 300 acre farm is that no one is making a competing offer for these places.....just the commercial companies and developers people oppose. So the arguement of "there goes another 300 year old farm" is flawed many times as people make it sound like there is an alternative for the sellers of the farm.
The reason why I brought up the example of selling off a portion of an existing farm is that it brings to light a very real scenario that is playing out all over New England. The current owners are probably elderly or have passed and the land is owned by their estate. They need some $ or income from the land and it isn't worth it to farm anymore and no one has come along as a white knight like a conservation trust. A developer offers them $400K for the 30 acres. What should they do? Go bankrupt and lose it all or take the cash?
The decision point is very similar to having to sell your house; do you take the lowball offer that bails you out or do you hold out and risk the fact that you never get another offer and lose the house?
The only real flaw in your approach is that it is pie in the sky at this moment and big boxes and developers are real offers today.
My personal desire would be to see Vermont's economy grow through more organic means; unfortunately things like farm to table etc. don't have the scale to really be anything other than a compliment to a core economy. What is happening in the NEK in Newport etc. are very good approaches, sure there are cons to everything, but at least there are some people making thigns happen and bringing in real jobs (yes some are outsourced) to Vermonters. Much like your research facilty approach.
Earlier in this thread you had mentioned something about a hypothetical box store buying a 300 acre farm and developing 30 acres. You've mentioned spoke and hub -- instead of making a Williston-sized over-developed area rife with tech parks -- situate these research/tech facilities in such a way that they are X miles from either the college, other research park, and/or city/large town.
If this 300 acre farm were purchased for a research facility (off shoot of Dartmouth, Yale, UVM, etc.) which created a small, self contained campus with housing (cluster type to preserve land) and perhaps a small landing strip or helicopter pad) I would be for it. Center the facility plunk in the middle, allow as much acreage for buffer to maintain the rural look. It can be done. We have Renaissance Technologies in Setauket, NY; it is not even visible from the main road (which has existed since the colonial era) and contributes greatly to the local economy.
The owner of Renaissance Techonologies hires very well-educated people, pays them very well. They've settled in the area, buy homes, remodel them, furnish them, hire landscapers, cooks, house cleaners, interior designers, support the arts, dine out, purchase big ticket items.
Mr. Simons and Ren Tech aren't easy to come by; in this case, Mr. Simons was a math professor at the local university before hitting it big with his mathematical model for investing and hedge funds.
With all these allegedly intelligent people in Montpelier, why don't he go out and court the state's (and neighboring states) universities and colleges and create research centers such as the one which was built most recently near my home? Center of Excellence in Wireless and Information Technology
Research centers = patents = money
More research centers = more researchers earning good money = more people to support the local economy
A research or technology center will attract people who have the education and experience to thrive and prosper. They in turn will need the services of those who are experienced in other ways (service people, restaurants, grocers, home furnishings, contractors, etc.) which will cause them to need to hire laborers, waitresses, stock people, etc.
Long story short -- creating or bringing in businesses which require educated/skilled people will create more job opportunities for those with limited or no skills. Bringing in retail dollar store sales jobs where the employees are earning minimum wage (or perhaps a little higher) will only create more dollar store consumers.
Yes, Vermont is a conflicted state. I believe it has made great strides in preserving the land -- you can't get that back when it is gone -- but needs to look into clever ways to 'grow' and retain something other than retail business and do it in a way which is in harmony with preserving the environment.
Am I idealistic? Too simplistic? Am I missing something?
Speaking as someone with a PhD in the engineering sciences who spent decades in the research game, ten years running a high tech business as a lone wolf in southern VT and several years on the BoD of a business incubator in VT, I can tell you what you are missing.
1- Plenty of Vermonters do not like the idea of a research center. They don't trust, it, think it would lead to increased property values, people from "away" streaming in, possible permitting concerns for the facility itself. Doesn't matter where you want to put it, someone somewhere will object, and if they have to travel from western Mass to do so.
2 - Too many VT towns have a capital assets tax which is assessed on small businesses. This IMO is a huge deterrent to investment and to firms looking to relocate from CT and NJ.
3 - Research centers do not exist in a vacuum and are not created by building a technology park and hoping someone shows up. They need a steady stream of fresh young students and mentors who are kept sharp by participating in a competitive grant process. All we have that is in VT is UVM and it is neither highly rated nor is it likely to interact with any entities not within commuting distance of Burlington. Dartmouth is close to VT but the VT income tax is the big deterrent to any entrepeneurs deciding to settle across the river. I had a LONG talk with Bob Dean (ever hear of Hypertherm?) a few years ago about why the VT side of the river across from Hanover NH looked so bleak while Hanover/Lebanon are thriving. He told me about his attempts to get Montpelier to listen to him about making exceptions for border communities. Plenty of entrepeneurs from Dartmouth would like nothing better than to find lower cost properties for their ventures, but refuse to take the whole Vermont package they would get stuck with if they set up camp in WRJ.
4 - We all know what a nightmare the permitting process is in VT. People have trouble getting permits to start a horse farm in this state. Think of what would happen if someone wanted to set up a clean room or a chemistry lab. For crying out loud this is a state that has barred the use of lead in brass used for components which come in contact with drinking water. The pervasive irrationality and paranoia which stems from an utter ignorance of all things technological in Vermont is well known in the scientific and technical community. NH welcomes this type of enterprise (although I will say you have to watch which town you are a looking at, at least on a state level NH wants high tech enterprises). What does VT have that corresponds to the NHHTC? Nothing.
Frugal......thanks for the indepth first hand knowledge. I only had second hand experience with Vermont's busines environment. Overall, the capital just doesn't get it when it comes to attracting businesses. Then again, that may not be their goal.
Again, a conflicted state; we can save all the rural area, farms, trees, rivers etc. and that is a noble plight, but it is also diametrically opposed to a place with thriving high income jobs.
Vermont has it's trees and farms which are awesome, but that also comes along with low wages and one of the highest tax burdens in the country.
Frugal......thanks for the indepth first hand knowledge. I only had second hand experience with Vermont's busines environment. Overall, the capital just doesn't get it when it comes to attracting businesses. Then again, that may not be their goal.
Again, a conflicted state; we can save all the rural area, farms, trees, rivers etc. and that is a noble plight, but it is also diametrically opposed to a place with thriving high income jobs.
Vermont has it's trees and farms which are awesome, but that also comes along with low wages and one of the highest tax burdens in the country.
It is not diametrically opposed. Look at Bavaria in Germany. Decades ago Bavaria was a state with beautiful landscapes which relied on tourism and agriculture for its economy and was consistently on the receiving end of German federal funds because it was so poor. Josef Strauss embarked on a three step plan to turn Bavaria into an economic powerhouse which hasn't lost it's beauty, tourism or agriculture. Granted, Bavaria has two large cities, Munich (which I would compare to Atlanta in some respects) and Nuremberg. While I do not think Vermont could ever achieve what Bavaria has, it could certainly attract and retain more high tech businesses. Montpelier needs to rein in their overly aggressive regulators and stop treating business owners as if we are dirt. Everyone from the governor down to the lowest paid state employee needs a fundamental attitude change. Their salaries are being paid by someone who has created or earned something and been made to let Vermont wash their hands in it. It is not a privilege to have a business in Vermont, we are doing the state a favor. If they treat us like we are unwanted we will leave. Many already have. And many more who relocate from CT and NJ go stright to NH without giving VT even a passing glance. And what does Shumlin have to say about it? We should just stop saying bad things about the business climate in Vermont. As if sticking your head in the sand will make the problems go away.
Vermont does not have to be dirt poor, but most low-income Vermonters as well as transplants want it that way because they are scared that allowing one industrial park to be built somewhere will automatically bring in a flood of sprawl and ruin whatever it is they find attractive about the state. To my ears the mindset is that of the ugliest girl in school bragging about how she would turn down a prom invitation from the handsomest boy, unaware that he has no intention of asking her.
Thought I would share this recent post (speaking of Japan but with the US as an intended analog):
Quote:
…how can an economy have “endless expansion and growth” when pay and opportunities for secure, high-paying jobs are both relentlessly declining? It cannot. Financialization, consumerist narcissism and the end of growth are inextricably linked. As I wrote yesterday, this leads to a dispiriting “no exit”: It’s as if there is a split in the road and no third way: some young people make it onto the traditional corporate or government career path, and everyone else is left in part-time suspended animation with few options for adult expression or development.
We need a third way that offers people work, resilience and authentic meaning. In my view, that cannot come from the Central State or the global corporate workplace: it can only come from a relocalized economy in revitalized communities.
Adult expression and development, resilience and authentic meaning vs. a life--a "life worth living" (!!) according to Logs 'n' Dogs--scraping together pennies to buy foreign-made plastic Halloween crap at the Dollar Store.
I'm not content to just shrug my shoulders and say "it's all good" because it isn't.
Farm-to-plate is not a mere adjunct to a "core economy"; it IS the economy: the only economy that makes any sense pursuing at all. I feel as though most people are continuing to follow the Pied Piper of "growth" even when it no longer makes any rational sense to do so and has become a "build-it-and-they-will-come" sort of cargo cult*.
We need a third way that offers people work, resilience and authentic meaning. In my view, that cannot come from the Central State or the global corporate workplace: it can only come from a relocalized economy in revitalized communities.
The current model, besides providing unsatisfying lives for the majority, is increasingly unsustainable for multiple reasons. Unfortunately, that model has been adopted by both major U.S. political parties and most of the developed world. A "third way" isn't going to happen except under the auspices of one of the other two. Perhaps the central state model will merge with the global corporate model if China gets its act together. In the mean time, we have it pretty good here in Vermont, as an isolated pocket within the U.S.
Who exactly has it pretty good in Vermont? The state employees whose guaranteed high salaries come out of state tax revenues maybe? Anybody else?
We have a permanent welfare class and a class of working poor who see no other way to stretch their meager income than to buy questionable goods from dollar stores and we have it pretty good?
I've joked a few times about the VT economy being based on welfare, yard sales, and drug deals but these days it's with a hollow laugh. The money that gets spent in dollar stores and ultimately yields wealth to the store owners and to a lesser extent the suppliers (meanwhile creating yet more Mcjobs that don't pay a living wage) has to come from somewhere. Where is that money coming from? Taxes which go to support the welfare recipients? Wages earned by being a $7/hr cashier at a convenience store selling fuel, cigarettes and junk food or a $10/hr ski lift operator at a ski resort that the employee would not be able to afford a ski ticket for?
Housing prices are still dropping and sales are down while the rest of the country is seeing a recovery. I'm not seeing anything good about the VT economy.
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