[arel]

What is it like to live in the Upper Valley?

I lived in the area for a few weeks about 20 years ago. The place seemed friendly. Some of the people I met seemed odd, but you get that anywhere. Overall, are the people there fairly cosmopolitan, or do they tend to be more provincial?

I would imagine the employment scene is better than in Brattleboro because of Hanover and vicinity. Is this true? How is the relationship between cost of living and salaries?

How is the cost of living there? How are the property taxes in the area, compared with other parts of Vermont? (I have read that Brattleboro has the highest property taxes in the state.) Also, how about other housing costs, such as rent, home prices, food, electricity and heat?

I really loved the scenery in that area, both in Vermont and in New Hampshire, and, overall, especially in Vermont, there seemed to be a good vibe.

The roads sometimes inclined at very steep angles, and I dreaded the thought of skidding on them in the winter. Also, there were some very steep drop-offs that were also scary. I think I remember seeing one in someone's back yard. I've seen this in Brattleboro, too, where the mountains are smaller, so I guess it's a mountain thing.

How cohesive are the towns there in terms of sense of community? Is there stuff to do? I've read that there is little to do. But Dartmouth and Hanover are just over the river. How far away is Montpelier, in terms of driving time?

Where is the nearest nuclear power plant? In Brattleboro, about an hour south, Vermont Yankee is a big issue.

And how cold does it get in the winter, compared to Brattleboro? I've been told it can get very cold there.

I have also read of the different "vibes" between the Vermont and New Hampshire sides of the river. Can anyone elaborate on this? This is obviously a generalization, and also, it was about 20 years ago, but I think people in Vermont seemed warmer, calmer and more down to earth. People in New Hampshire, at least at Dartmouth, seemed colder, less friendly, less approachable and more tense. They seemed like affluent New Yorkers, which they might have been. I don't know how typical the people at Dartmouth are of the area, though.

[GypsySoul22]

Well, you know we just moved here from NY a month ago. I can tell you my view(s) and then some long timers or other people can fill you in.

Yes, I feel there is a different vibe on the VT side vs. NH. It's more mellow here than in Lebanon, let's say. It's also prettier. Of course all the jobs are over in the NH side (West Lebanon/Lebanon/Hanover). I sort of wish I lived there just for that, though we are only 10-20 minutes drive from 'it all.'

In West Lebanon you can have ALL the shopping you want then go back to Vermont. There are many major stores, 3 supermarkets (2 Shaws, 1 Pricechopper), restaurants, Staples, Best Buy, bookstores.

My husband was at our bank in Hanover and came home telling me of 'real stores' (In our town there's nothing much).

I find the Vermont side more 'tourist dollar' driven which I told you before is a bit depressing and crass (just to me, no offense if you work in tourism). If I had my choice, I'd be over in NH but my husband like VT better.

There are plenty of things to do (one good point of being in the tourist area) from farm festivals to opera (in Lebanon there is an opera house and they also have plays and musical gatherings). There's bingo in WRJ if you like that sort of thing. They have a Coop in WRJ and I think it's quite good.

I'm limited now (one car) and also we have a child so we don't go out much at night so I can't tell you about the social life.

People say hello here if you are walking or so on but mostly everyone is reserved and seems to keep to themselves. I plan on joining something to meet people socially. I am sure if you have hobbies you can find someone that way. I know you like cats. There's an animal shelter in WRJ that may need volunteers.

Would you be renting? According to people I spoke with, rents are high in the whole upper valley. We still pay less for our place than we would in NY for the same apartment size & so on. I suggest you rent until you find out what you like here.

[arel]

What about cultural venues, community engagement, like they have in Brattleboro?

Also, what is the tone of the culture there? Upscale, cultured, cosmopolitan, bohemian?

Is the political climate more to the left or to the right?

How about crime and security?

I would want to be part of things. I do not want be with people who largely keep to themselves. I'd feel too isolated.

The Upper Valley is, I think, prettier than the Brattleboro area. The mountains are higher. And, although I could be wrong, I think the area has more, better and higher-paying jobs. (As a clinical social worker, I might be able to work at DHMC.)

Somehow, though, I think Brattleboro is a better place for me. Brattleboro is a unique, bohemian, free-spirited place with lots of stuff to do and with lots of community spirit. It is like a rural version of Greenwich Village, although sometimes I feel I am in a 1960's time warp there. I am concerned, however, about the high cost of living, low salaries and the nearby Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant. VY is upwind and there are serious safety concerns. And I like being closer to NYC, although the Vermonter train also stops in White River Junction.

I know the drive to Brookyn from White River Junction took me about about 6 hours when I did it.

But, somehow, I think Burlington or even Montpelier would be better for me if I decide to move to Vermont but not to Brattleboro.

BTW, I didn't go to Brattleboro this weekend. My friend just got back from a long trip and it would have been a bit much for her to host me this weekend. I can come up maybe later in the month. The foliage will be better. And Gallery Walk comes every month.

[GypsySoul22]

Eek, don't take the Vermonter unless you have about 10 hours to devote to 'train travel at it's worst.'

I am not sure of the vibe (others will have to answer) because I have really not spent enough time in the NH side (apart from Lebanon/West Leb). I liked the look of Norwich in the brief time I saw it.

I would probably think Hanover is your typical 'college town' where everything sort of revolves around the college--they do have cultural events, classic and foreign films and so on.

Every town seems to have a certain feel. I keep being told 'you don't want to move to WRJ' by people (I guess it's a bit more 'run down') than another town or a little more seedy. However, I think it has some great stores (the Co-op is there as well as a fantastic bagel shop near the train station!) I can't say enough about that place--it's real NY bagels. Good thing I live 7 miles away or we'd be there every day..(my husband likes bagels!). I think they have some unique places in WRJ (a meditation center).

Few New Englanders are going to rush up and be your best buddy, but you're from NY so you understand that. You will also get a lot of questions like "Why did you move here?"

[68vette]

It depends on where you live in the upper valley. It's a beautiful area with many things to do. You just need to travel a little to do things(everything isn't in the same area). My wife grew up in WRJ and recommends not living there. WRJ is a bit run down. There are better towns around WRJ to live in like Wilder and Norwich. Politics are an important part of life in Vermont. Town meeting day in most towns is usually a full house, unlike many other places I have lived in the US. Election days are usually well attended as well compared to other states.

As Gypsysoul stated few people will come up to you and be your buddy, but thats the way people are becoming more and more. The only place I have seen people go out of there way to be friendly is in the rural communities. People will say hi to you in the store or when you pass them on the road and you will get the "country wave" when someone drives by you.

The cost of living also depends on where you live. If you lived in WRJ it would be much lower than if you lived for example in Norwich. The nicer towns on the Vermont side tend to be a little more expensive due to people who commute into NH to work. DHMC and the collage employ many of the people living in these towns. Getting a job shouldn't be an issue in your field. DHMC would most likely be the best paying possibly followed be the VA hospital. I would choose DHMC first. They have been winners multiple times as the best large employer in the state of NH.

The next time you come up stop by the area to check it out for yourself. It's only an hour from Brattleboro. From reading your posts I agree with you about Montpelier or Burlington being more of a better fit. If you go as far as the upper valley, drive up I-89 another 45 min and check out Montpelier.

As far as driving to NYC, your time will improve the more you make the trip. From Burlington(Colchester) to my sisters apt on 69th street it takes me between 5 1/2 to 6 hours depending on traffic with one stop for food and fuel. I only drive about 5 miles over the speed limit(I don't want speeding tickets). I'm a creature of habit so I have the trip down to a science. I know all the short cuts as well.

[arel]

Good bagels in Vermont???? Now that's something. I have not found a decent bagel in Brattleboro, and it has a bagel store and a yuppie deli.

People I have spoken to in Brattleboro encourage me to move there. Brattleboro is a charismatic place and, although people are aware of problems, and some people hate it there, I think that, overall, there is a genuine pride of place and sense of community. I don't know of any charismatic places in the Upper Valley, except maybe Norwich. But then I am no expert at all.

I visited White River Junction when I was a child, and I always remembered how ugly the downtown was. As an adult, I visited again, and found that it was not quite as ugly as I remembered. I visited becasue I had been invited to check it out.

I visited the VA hospital there. I left the building at dusk. The visual beauty around me was breathtaking. Same for the grocery store in, I think, Lebanon. I couldn't believe I was shopping in an ordinary supermarket and then coming out to such a view.

I also remember there were a lot of birch trees. And one night, in the birch trees, there was a firefly display that was totally unlike anything I had seen in NYC. In NYC, the fireflies fly alone, and light up intermittently. In White River Junction, I saw among the birch trees a huge light show put on by tons of fireflies. I have never seen anything like it before or since.

[GypsySoul22]

Yes, authentic NY bagels. I told the lady working there they are just as good as the ones in NY (the owner/baker is from NY apparently).

It looks to me that they are trying to fix up WRJ. The newer part of town has a lot of stores going up and there is a McDonald's (isn't it the first in VT), a Chinese Buffet (okay, not bad), lots of motels on the row there.

We chose to live in this town because it IS prettier than the others. I haven't been to a lot of towns yet but yeah, we are probably moving out of this town when our lease is up next year or moving closer to I89.

There are 3 hospitals near by--the VA one, Alice Peck Day (in Lebanon), and Dartmouth Hitchcock. Also I am not sure what sort of counseling you do but there seems to be a lot of 'no-profits' that could use a good therapist--you know like teen pregnancy places.

[arel]

I basically am a psychotherapist in general practice. I work with children, adolescents, adults and the elderly.

When I was up there 20 years ago, I checked out Dartmouth Hitchcock. I also interviewed at the VA hoapital, but at that time I didn't have my social work degree, only a masters in general psychology. The guy interviewing me, who seemed calm and down to earth, said that I didn't have the clinical credentials they needed.

There is someone who uses this forum - to protect her privacy I will not give her name - who has told me that therapists were very much needed in Windsor County. She said Brattleboro has plenty of therapists, which is true.

Of course, I could live in Brattleboro and work in Windsor County, but I really don't want to do that much commuting, no matter how pretty the commute is.

Good bagels in Vermont....I still can't get over that. Maybe the owner can open another store down in Brattleboro. I'd be there pretty often, but only if he sells whole wheat bagels.

[GypsySoul22]

Okay--jobs. Well the only reason we wound up here was the 'claim' of low unemployment. We had been looking in Concord, NH--didn't like the vibe there. Also looked in Littleton (too small, too north).

Yes, I could see a therapist being needed here. LOL. There always seems to be something in the paper in the mental health field. Just go on the local paper and you can see the jobs on line (Upper Valley News).

Not sure how well they pay. I look at it this way--someone is making decent money to afford $1,000 plus a month in rent for an apartment (more over in Norwich and in Hanover). No one making $10-12 is going to be able to carry that comfortably without a second job. There are a lot of $10 and less jobs here but then again, there are good paying ones, too.

Housing is not cheap--(it's cheaper than NY/Long Island though). If you bring your money from NY and get a small house you should be fine.

[Lilybeans]

The Upper Valley is very nice, but you need to get out of the Lebanon-Whiteriver area to really enjoy it. People shop in West Leb, but it's nicer to live north of Hanover or west of WRJ.

Obviously Dartmouth has a lot of cultural events. It's an Ivy League school. There are quite a few cultural events in Randolph as well.

The whole area is pretty educated, believe it or not. There is a college in Randolph Dartmouth, and Vermont Law School all in the area.

Hitchcock Medical Center is outstanding.

You need to remember though that people live in the area precisely because it is NOT cosmopolitan. Outdoor activities abound. Hiking, fishing, winter sports, etc. The main pastime is outdoors type stuff.

People are friendly, but they need to get to know you and know that you are invested in the area. Even then, outsiders will always be outsiders, even if you live there for 50 years.

Winter accidents are very common.

Burlington is only an hour and a half or so away, so that's an easy ride. Boston is only a few hours. Montpelier is 45 minutes. The area is very beautiful.