[pipkinra]

After having read all of this I have to weigh in. I guess the first thing I have to say is that people like Lily aren't in business to make the worker rich or even to support their workers qualify of life whatever that may be. They are in business to take care of their own needs and if they can make themselves wealthy. I do think that Lily is dealing in a lot of presumption when she says her workers are happy with no paid sick time or paid vacation. She is practicing capitalism at it's worst. It's sort of the bee hive mentality; the drones work themselves to death flying back and forth gathering pollen while the Matriarch (employer) just collects the honey giving the drones just enough to keep them flying and if one day the drones don't come back (dead, new job, etc) well there are always others to take their place at the same low salary.

Lily's ideas of employer/worker relations are just a microcosm of the country at-large. This is too large an issue for this forum but we workers have only themselves to blame because we have all sat back and watched as the government, state and federal outsourced manufacturing and skilled white collar jobs overseas so that they can maximize their income at US workers expense. What's left are unskilled service sector jobs that pay very little which is a problem for many small rural states and Vermont in particular. I am a fan of capitalism but as practiced in this country it's a disaster for the average worker.

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by pipkinra

After having read all of this I have to weigh in. I guess the first thing I have to say is that people like Lily aren't in business to make the worker rich or even to support their workers qualify of life whatever that may be. They are in business to take care of their own needs and if they can make themselves wealthy. I do think that Lily is dealing in a lot of presumption when she says her workers are happy with no paid sick time or paid vacation.

You have it completely wrong. My employees get paid vacation and sick time. I don't limit them, that's all. If someone wants extra days off, all they have to do is take them. They still get paid. If someone is sick, they don't come in. They still get paid. If they take three weeks, fine, they still get paid. All I ask is that they don't take two weeks in a row. No one has ever abused this. I trust them to do the right thing, and they always do.

[arel]

From the posts on this thread, it seems that working in Vermont is a nightmare. I can't imagine how one can enjoy the "quality of life" in Vermont if you are working all the time in abusive situations.

I don't mind working, because I like what I do. But I have little tolerance for abusive workplaces. I have left jobs where I felt the work environment to be abusive. The thing I most dread is feeling trapped in such an environment, without choices of other workplaces or other sources of financial support.

It is now known that abusive workplaces are a hazard to health.

If what has been described on this thread is what I can expect in Vermont, I think it would be better to stay in Brooklyn.

But I do agree that you have more control if you own your own business, and that this would apply to businesses in Vermont as well as anywhere else.

[flu189]

My wife for lack of a better way of putting it has been "trapped" in a job here for twenty-five months she at first tolerated with a positive lets see how it goes attitude to a point of hopeless abandon for any improvement which she now loathes. I am concerned because I do know the negative factors that stress can have on ones health. She constantly applies for new positions and so far nothing has worked out. It's not the nature of her work which she hates, but just the way she and her cowokers are treated. From speaking with other people I work with and now reading many of the posts here it sure does appear that there is a certain disfunctional work and management culture up here. There is a certain get by with the minimum attitude we have noticed. Underemployment is a major feature I have also noticed. So many degree holders out here competing for minimal jobs. Even where I work we just posted a vacancy and have been flooded with applications from people who have excellent backgrounds and education in unrelated fields. Many are currently working for employers where we know their wage is higher, but yet they are willing to leave taking a cut in pay and in many cases adding to their commuting distance. What all this indicates is that there are plenty of unsatisfied and under utilized folks out there. Then of course the confusion mounts when just recently the Vt dept of labor announced a significant drop in the workforce labor pool which they are a a loss to account for. Now I am not naive to the point to feel that this is all unique to just Vt, but there are definately some major issues up here that are not just personal from my own experience, but gleaned from two years of following events and speaking with numerous people.

[flu189]

Just wanted to add something I forgot to in my last post. Lots of reference to starting and managing your own business has been brought up. We flirted with the idea before moving here, but just don't really feel we have the skills and confidence nor the tolerance for risk. I applaud folks who have the initiative to create and operate a business not to mention that successful business endeavors and growth is critical for a healthy economy. But, I have met numerous folks, especially through my service with the guard, who own and operate businesses and a major recurrent theme involves considerable frustration directed at the policies and economics of the state. I don't know what the success and failure rates are up here and I surely don't know the exact nature of what frustrates folks here, but it's obvious that there is a level of stress amongst the self employed that I have met, hence being your own boss may not be all its cracked up to be either.

[Lilybeans]

There is a huge amount of stress being your own boss, no doubt about it. But when things are good, everything you make is yours. The downside is that you really can't take time off, and even when you do, you can't put the work out of your mind.

You can come and go as you please though. There is something to be said for that.

[arel]

Right now I work pretty much as an independent contractor, with several agencies. The downside is that I have no benefits; I have to pay for my own health insurance and I lose money if I get sick or take time off. Often, though, I can reschedule appointments, but not always. Another problem is that I don't get paid for my time if a client breaks or cancels an appointment.

The upside is that

1) I make more money when I do more work. No increase in workload without a corresponding increase in compensation.

2) If I want to go away (say to Vermont ) I just let them know I am taking the time off. I don't have to ask permission like a school child asking to use the bathroom.

3) I have some job security because I work several jobs. If one job were to end, I can usually pick up the slack by increasing work at another. I also have more freedom to quit an abusive job.

Meanwhile, I am preparing to do private practice, which is a small business. I find myself holding back with this, in part because I am trying to decide if and when I will move to Vermont.

But from what I have been reading here, I just may stay put, if not in Brooklyn, then in the NYC area. Work is an enormous part of your life, and, at least to me, the quality of work life has a large bearing on the quality of your life in general. I guess I am fortunate in that I can work in the field I chose and trained for. Not everyone, even in New York, can do that. A close friend, who is a wonderful, conservatory-trained musician, has to do completely unrelated work to survive, work in which she has little interest.

I'm not saying, by any means, that New York has unlimited opportunities, but there are more choices than in Vermont. In NYC, there are hundreds of mental health agencies. In Brattleboro, I am aware of two.

Now I can understand why young people leave Vermont in droves. Maybe it is not a good state to live in if you have to work. Maybe it is a good state to live in if you are independently wealthy and do not have to work to pay the bills.

This is so depressing.

I am grateful for the insights on this thread, even though they are sobering and sad.

Does anyone have anything positive to say about working in Vermont, other than the pretty commute?

[GypsySoul22]

Arel,
In the end you have to decide what is right. You can still keep sending resumes from NY to VT/NH. (if you are considering the Upper Valley). Maybe you can invest in a rental property (there are so many of them) and live here part-time. rent out the other time.

I've moved several times and to be honest you really have to LIVE somewhere to know it well.

Don't let horror stories put you off if you really want to move. As much as people are 'running down' VT and New England in this thread, you and I both know that there are terrible conditions in NY companies & the economy as well.
Yes, in a big place you can 'walk out' and get something else easier.
But maybe in a small place you will know so and so who knows this guy who can get you a good job.


It's all about connections.

My own experiences are not 'typical' because I haven't worked in a long time being an 'at home' parent, coupled with having 'a lot of education'--it's not easy to break in somewhere when you have a higher degree. There is a temptation to aim too low. But I am trying to look at this differently now.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[vter]

Both my DH and I absolutely love our jobs and have great employers. We have good benefits and a good working environment. Just like anywhere, there are good employers and bad employers.
Remember...this is a state of just 600,000 people. Our economy is small.

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by GypsySoul22

Arel,

Yes, in a big place you can 'walk out' and get something else easier.
But maybe in a small place you will know so and so who knows this guy who can get you a good job.

Don't forget that it works the other way too. Word gets around.