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Old 03-11-2013, 09:57 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,202,288 times
Reputation: 9020

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalYankee View Post
Sprawl and development? "Vermonters" (or should I transplants) are worried about that? This is like the ugliest girl at the dance being worried about how to handle a young man getting fresh with her when in fact there is no danger of her even getting asked to dance. Vermont is a lost cause. The only people entering the state are those who do not work and who have no intention of working. Either they are bringing in their retirement income or they are welfare trash coming up from the NYC and southern New England metro areas. Vermont makes it painfully clear that it is not interested in citizens who start companies and put Vermonters to work. The goal is that every sits on their hind ends. The rich ones sit in their hillside homes and admire the scenery, and the welfare / section recipients sit on their porches and do drugs. There in no inbetween anymore because the decent jobs are being eliminated with no replacements.

Don't worry about development or sprawl in VT, the only chances of that happening are from
a) scammers who hae no intention of making good on their promises who will take the tax $$ and run when the timing is right
b) naive out-of-staters who see movies like "Baby Boom" and think that Vermont won't kick you in the knees from behind if you are genuinely trying to make a positive contribution to the economy
Well I disagree about the sprawl. Chittenden County has been destroyed with sprawl.

You are right about there increasingly being little middle class.




Quote:
I completely agree. Ever hear of Precision Valley? How it began, grew, declined and where it stands now? Did you know that little Springfield was such an industrial powerhouse during WWII that it was number 8 on Hitler's list of war targets? Knocking out Springfield would have put a huge dent in the country's ability to product ball bearings and machine tools needed for the war effort. So yes, please, learn a little history. ot everyone in Vermont was tapping maples in the 20th century. I do not understand why so many Vermonters are in denial about the manufacturing heritage that allowed anyone willing to learn a trade to live in relative wealth. Mention manufacturing today and transplants look at you as if you sad a naughty word. It's the only thing that addes real value to basic commodities. We can't all sell each other insurance and sue each other; THAT will not nake an economy work.
Springfield was the exception not the rule. The Rust Belt in those days had Vermont beat by a long shot. VT had gun makers, an iron foundry (Tyson Furnace), etc., in the 19th century, but PA and the Midwest was the real industrial center of the country by WWII. WWII is what really changed this state, or rather, the end of WWII. VT'ers returning from the war left in droves, and outsiders with money "discovered" the state. Of course the 1960's was when that got bad. Manufacturing jobs only paid well for a short time in the 20th century. Before about the time of WWII they paid poorly, and now with outsourcing they don't pay well either if they even exist. The rest of the world being in shambles made the high paying factory jobs possible.

The endless growth model of the national economy doesn't work. There's only so many resources to consume, so much water and air to pollute. We'll also never bring back manufacturing here until we dump free trade. Vermont can't compete with China.


Quote:
I agree that shopping is not a pastime and we can leave the ugly malls to places like Mass and NH. The internet is your friend when you need an item of decent quality, or you can always do a day trip to Boston. But let's be honest. Older people may enjoy camping, hiking and fishing in the bitter cold. Young people generally do not. I remember growing up (before there was even a pizza place) and you know what we did for fun? Get in someone's car, cruise up to the plaza, see who was there, cruise to the next town, so who was there, cruise back to our own downtown. Rinse and repeat. I couldnt wait to get out at age 17 and left for Boston. What were my prosects in Vermont? Be a waitress at Okemo or marry a journeyman machinist. That was it. For someone with ambition that is not very inviting. I came back ten years ago to start a business and while I do not regret having done so, I have given up on the idea of expanding it and putting Vermonters to work (as was my hope and intention when I started it) because I am weary of fighting the state and its "we don't want enterprise" mentality. I'd rather take my ambition to a state that rewards entrepeneurs instead of cutting them off at every possible (and trumped up) opportunity.
Well I guess I had a little different experience growing up. I go into hunting, fishing, hiking, etc. Even when I was young I didn't have much interest in shopping centers or such, and I had quite a few friends the same way. Some people find what cities offer appealing, others don't. Obviously, those like the OP who find cities appealing will find VT miserable.

 
Old 03-11-2013, 10:49 AM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,834,741 times
Reputation: 1571
arctic You're meant to be here....not everyone else can hack it
 
Old 03-11-2013, 12:14 PM
 
Location: in a cabin overlooking the mountains
3,079 posts, read 3,708,782 times
Reputation: 2253
Springfield, Windsor, Claremont, Newport. Precision Valley goes both ways from the river.

Newport still has a gun maker (Ruger). NH also has Sig Sauer and a lot of small defense manufacturing.

Vermont may not be able to compete with China but you would think it could compete with NH. It can't. I know of small high tech manufacturing operations in Claremont that have had customers tell them they are going to get parts made in China because it's cheaper. Every one of those customers came back after about three years because dealing with the resulting quality problems (we are talking medical device and aerospace) cost far more than they ended up saving.

And Vermont doesn't need to be driving small manufacturing businesses over the river to NH. It's not as if the environemental laws in NH are THAT much different from VT. No one can tell me that NH is any more polluted or less beautiful than VT. The difference is the way regulatory issues are handled. VT goes out of its way to make things difficult for businesses. In NH - and I will qualify by emphasizing that at the state level - you have to actually do something bad in order to get on their radar. I have seen where certain towns and communities have made things difficult for businesses because of overeager building inspectors who played "gotcha" with small busineses. That didn't last very long since word gets out quickly and the town economic development board put them on a shorter leash.

I'm not talking about endless growth, I am talking about putting an end to the economic hemorrhaging that has been killing livable wage jobs in Vermont, reducing the commercial tax base and forcing more people to work two or more junk jobs in order to make ends meet. Obviously I am in the minority. Yes I will leave, like so many others, and move to a state that values small businesses.
 
Old 03-11-2013, 12:25 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,834,741 times
Reputation: 1571
Sorry, but I think VT needs some outside swagger/cajones to spruce it up to speed. Rebels will fall by the wayside...the rest say bring it on. Are you a native or aer you an outsider????/ Step up
 
Old 03-11-2013, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Winter Springs, FL
1,789 posts, read 4,056,514 times
Reputation: 925
FrugalYankee makes a good point. Outside of the vast evidence and admission by the state government that they are not as friendly to business as the state should be, the population statistics are concerning. Vermont was only one of two states that has had a decrease in population and the state population growth has been flat for over a decade on top of that. Some may think this is not a big deal, but it points several things out that are well known facts. Youth are leaving the state, the state continues to have tax shortfalls as well as large budget deficits and tied into the two, the state of Vermont is neck and neck with Maine for the oldest population. Chip Sawyer, of the University of Vermontís Center for Rural Studies as well as AARP-Vermont Executive Director Greg Marchildon also pointed out that thereís a generational issue: that younger and newer generations tend to lean toward more urban environments than the Baby Boomers did, and Vermont doesnít have many real urban areas to offer. Vermontís rural nature is not attractive for todayís young adult.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 08:09 AM
 
459 posts, read 905,591 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalYankee View Post
Springfield, Windsor, Claremont, Newport. Precision Valley goes both ways from the river.

Newport still has a gun maker (Ruger). NH also has Sig Sauer and a lot of small defense manufacturing.

Vermont may not be able to compete with China but you would think it could compete with NH. It can't. I know of small high tech manufacturing operations in Claremont that have had customers tell them they are going to get parts made in China because it's cheaper. Every one of those customers came back after about three years because dealing with the resulting quality problems (we are talking medical device and aerospace) cost far more than they ended up saving.

And Vermont doesn't need to be driving small manufacturing businesses over the river to NH. It's not as if the environemental laws in NH are THAT much different from VT. No one can tell me that NH is any more polluted or less beautiful than VT. The difference is the way regulatory issues are handled. VT goes out of its way to make things difficult for businesses. In NH - and I will qualify by emphasizing that at the state level - you have to actually do something bad in order to get on their radar. I have seen where certain towns and communities have made things difficult for businesses because of overeager building inspectors who played "gotcha" with small busineses. That didn't last very long since word gets out quickly and the town economic development board put them on a shorter leash.

I'm not talking about endless growth, I am talking about putting an end to the economic hemorrhaging that has been killing livable wage jobs in Vermont, reducing the commercial tax base and forcing more people to work two or more junk jobs in order to make ends meet. Obviously I am in the minority. Yes I will leave, like so many others, and move to a state that values small businesses.
I dont think youre in the minority. The majority of people i went to high school with have left. Most leave for jobs, some leave because the whole "oldest state" thing isnt conducive to having a social life in your 20s and 30s. Oh well, maybe vt will realize whats going on before theres no tax base left. Personally dont care as i intend to leave as soon as i get hired somewhere else.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,867 posts, read 2,974,698 times
Reputation: 3981
Been here ten years. From NE my whole life (MA) will tell you the truth about VT. NO JOBS. Unless you work in healthcare (fletcher allen) or techie (IBM) youre screwed. A job that pays 50k elsewhere will pay 35 here. Ive been in several fields (realty, commission sales, bartending etc) and in every instance you would do much better elsewhere. Homes and apartments are beyond ridiculous. A 2 br condo downtown Winooski will cost 300K!!!! Ask anyone, anywhere if theyve ever heard of Winooski VT let alone pay 300K for a tiny condo there??!! My mother in law had a 3 br 2.5 bath home in myrtle beach with palm trees in the yard and an acre of land for a 130k. Same home here is 500 plus. Most towns (St Albans, Barre etc) are old, falling apart dumps.

I agree for the most part, with this.

There is nothing to do here. Dont listen to the quack who suggests going for a hike in two feet of snow when its ten below out.

It depends on what you want to do. If you came here expecting it to be the city, it’s no wonder you are disappointed.

Saw the sun today. First time in WEEKS. Cold grey and miserable 8 months a year.

That’s not just Vermont. Western New York is just as bad if not worse. Lived there for 6 years.

Locals, natives whatever you want to call them are rude as hell. They act like everyone from everywhere else isThey also act as thougj NOWHERE else on earth has any natural scenery or beauty. If you listened to a Vter they would convince you its the only geographic locale with mountains or trees!

Locals, natives want to be left alone. They have seen too many people invade their state pretending to want to just blend in and then when they are established, show their true colors. A lot have been treated very rudely by people from elsewhere or worse yet, looked down upon and treated in a condescending manner.

Businesses Leave in droves, screwey tax laws and restrictions prevent new ones from starting. Young people who have half a brain are leaving as fast as they can. Taxes and utilities are remarkably high for very little.

Agree with this part

The population is FULL of welfare mongers.

Yes, there is a lot of that and a certain portion of it came from elsewhere too. I can attest to that as I have seen it myself.

Everyone visits Burlington and Stowe or Windsor and thinks "Oh how pretty like a postcard!"

That’s your city people from elsewhere mostly.

Its a facade people. Folks here like to pump water from a well like its 1890. Not very progressive.

Some don’t want to be progressive. What’s wrong with that?

Just because you see the burlington "crowd" on the news dont buy it. The level of racism, homophobia and other forms of bigotry is huge here. They dont want you here unless your a white trash hick dirtbag who sleeps with his family.

Now you’re being bigoted.

And if you dont believe me, I have spoken with members of authority who stated that St Albans has hundreds of cases of incest on file. Considering there is only 15,000 people in that area, its a staggering number.

As do a lot of rural places. Nothing new. Nothing to be proud of sure.

So for all you people from elsewhere who say eeeeee i want/cant wait to move to Vermont, DONT do it. Youll regret it till you leave

Please don’t move there if you have an attitude like this poster.

Most drive without a license. Always drive 10-15 miles UNDER the limit unless the weather is real bad then they speed. NOONE uses blinkers. Worst drivers ive ever encountered through living in six states and a few european countries

What’s wrong with going under the speed limit on a secondary road. You haven’t driven very many places have you? I have driven many places where people drive “worse” than in Vermont in fact I am living in one now. You should talk. People drive on the shoulders to pass others. And Massachusetts has a city with some of the worse drivers in the nation….Boston.

Lol no Rutland for me, but honestly whats the difference right? Its just another dumphole that some native will try and play up and pretend like its the hub of the universe because they caught a free local concert once, or had a town hall meeting there lol

No worse than some of your “dumpholes” in Massachusetts that I have been to.

Vermont is beautiful yes, but my point is exactly the one youre making. Im also saying that Vters dont realize or deny that theres a HUGE problem with lack of commerce, industry and jobs.

There is yes, and it’s not all Vermonters’ faults either although I am sure they take their share of the blame.

They complain about other states. And those places do have crime and pollution etc. but then there’s the beauty.
California has the northern mountians, and the giant redwoods and incredible coastline. Massachusetts has the cape, and the berkshires etc. my point is most places have the good and the bad and a little in the middle. Vermont has scenic beauty and thats IT.

True, everywhere has its good and bad.

No jobs, no commerce, nowhere to shop etc

It depends on where you want to shop. If you are used to a place like Boston then, no you won’t find that anywhere in Vermont. For a good reason. Vermont is a separate culture. It is NOT a rural version of Massachusetts. If that’s what you want then may I suggest you move to western Massachusetts. Too many people move to Vermont expecting it to be a rural version of their state. It is not. It is what it is perfect or not. And with the transplant population approaching 50% you can’t just blame “Vermonters” for all of the woes. I always say that the interstate runs in both directions and no one is holding you back.

Last edited by CaseyB; 03-13-2013 at 12:02 PM.. Reason: response to deletion
 
Old 03-14-2013, 04:24 PM
 
5 posts, read 8,381 times
Reputation: 40
I find it funny reading this. I moved to Burlington from California/Oregon recently (only ~3 months) and so far love it. Granted, employment was easy for me (I came out for a job w/ IBM), but my girlfriend found employment here as well with a decent salary and including full benefits. From what I've seen people are very friendly, scenery is beautiful, there's a lack of the big-box strip mall bullsh*t that you see all over CA, and the good part of year isn't even here yet! Honestly I pretty much only miss friends and the ability to ride my bike all winter (but skiing is making up for it). If you want a city, Montreal is 2 hours away and better than both SF and (gasp) Portland. I will say that getting an apartment in Burlington is ridiculous, but buying real estate is way cheaper (raw housing cost, at least) than CA.

Just saying - as a RECENT transplant, I'm so far liking it a lot.
 
Old 03-14-2013, 09:58 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,456,308 times
Reputation: 13016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ughdontevenbother View Post
Right but were not talking about just visiting Vt which does have some great summers. Live here year round and feel the pain lol. Good points about the cape. I was just using an example in an earlier post. I think we can agree that there is no such thing as a perfect place however, my problem lies in the fact that most Vters would never admit its not utopia. Im from Mass and i can tell you the good from the bad and admit faults. Up here, people act like were sitting in the palm of god and if you question it, they go ape on you
Why don't you move back to MA then?

By the way, I know where Winooski is. I even know what it means. It's Indian for "onion fields." See, I remember something I learned while sitting in a bar drinking back in the early 80's.
 
Old 03-16-2013, 06:20 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
11 posts, read 26,214 times
Reputation: 32
Very well said.

As to the original poster, if you do not like cold weather or gray days, then Vermont is not the place for you. It is cold there in the winter and there are gray days and the jobs are slim, but so are they in a lot of states. Again, if you do not like it, do not move there. I go to Vermont every year for a week with hubby and we mostly go to the North East Kingdom towns. I love it there. Have been there in the winter too. As for the rude people, I have yet to meet a Vermonter who has been rude to me in all the years I have been going there. Hubby and I are just waiting to retire to get ourselves there. I live in New Jersey and there is plenty of welfare here, believe me. As for taxes and housing, no one beats the taxes in New Jersey as we are supposed to have the highest in the nation, but what can you do. I ready many posts on this Vermont forum and as I said before, if you do not like the state, do not move here. No matter where you live there will be hardship, just depends on what you want out of life as to if you want to put up with certain hardships. There is my two cents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Dear God I don't know where to begin on this one. Spend any length of time on this forum and you'll see lots of conversations on the lack of jobs. Everyone knows it's a problem. What you don't seem to understand is we want some jobs but we don't want the kind of sprawl and development gobbling up places like the NEK that places like MA or CA have. Chittenden County is everything most of us don't want. All kinds of great farmland and wildlife habitat paved over for butt ugly mcmansions and strip mall development. Places like Essex County are rather unique for a tiny New England state like ours for the semi-wilderness it contains. You'd have to go to Northern Maine to find anything comparable. It's full of rare or endangered species of plants, animals and even insects. Boreal species rarely seen in New England. If some lost species such as wolves or caribou are ever to have any place to return to here someday, it will be there. That is my favorite part of VT and I don't want to see it ruined. I think the logging and lumber industry could help the region if the feds ever put a stop to NAFTA. You understand NAFTA took away a lot of jobs from our region.

Something you need to understand about this state is its history. Even into the mid 20th century a large portion of VT'ers were essentially subsistence farmers, making a little money off things like syrup, milk, lumber, trapping, etc. We had a little industry, not a lot. When land was cheap and taxes were low and the population was half of what it is today it worked fine. The problem now is the state has been "discovered" by people who would either turn it into a big museum or another MA.

As far as shopping, the lack of worries about fashion or suits or whatever, I like that much of this state's people are less worried about trivial, consumerist vanities. I find that lifestyle one finds in urban/suburban areas very empty and frustrating. If you're into all of that stuff, no, this is not a good state for you. If you can't handle cold weather I can understand why the suggestion of hiking in the Winter might not seem too nice, but I've camped out at 30 below without issue. There's a lot to do here to me: hunt, hike, fish, trap, grow gardens, etc., not to mention helping with some maple sugaring.
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