[68vette]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

Agree with most of those. Have you seen how many real WORKING farms there are now compared to in the past though? North Beach was ALWAYS sewage runoff. Don't look at me, I just try to keep people honest. ESPECIALLY those people who want to severely restrict other people because of their own fantasy apocalyptic visions.

There are farms that sit on the lake, but they are not the only farms that are of concern. There are many farms in Central Vermont and Northern Vermont that are located on rivers and streams that feed into the lake. Dairy farms have decreased in numbers, but the number of farms has been growing for the past 20 years. The same can be said of New York state which has more farms and cheaper land prices which don't decrease the number of farms as rapidly.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by 68vette

There are farms that sit on the lake, but they are not the only farms that are of concern. There are many farms in Central Vermont and Northern Vermont that are located on rivers and streams that feed into the lake. Dairy farms have decreased in numbers, but the number of farms has been growing for the past 20 years. The same can be said of New York state which has more farms and cheaper land prices which don't decrease the number of farms as rapidly.

You miss my point. Back 60 years ago and earlier, there were many many dairy farms throughout the state, not just around Lake Champlain. The Waterbury area was covered with them. By the 1970s, to the best of my recollection, there were only the Keith farm, the Harvey Farm in Duxbury, the Constance Farm, and the Woodward Farm still around. All of the hill farms were gone by then. Of those, only the Harvey Farm was close enough to the Winooski to be much of a possible problem.

The period when there were a lot of farms was not a major time of problems in the Lake except the places I mentioned - I know firsthand, as I was on it every summer. The reduction in the numbers of farms had little or no effect as far as I saw. The problems in parts of Malletts Bay and Missisquoi Bay & Chapman existed, but appear to have become much more pronounced as of late, even with the limited development allowed in the state AND reduction in farms from the peak of the small dairy farm industry.

Farmers are very cost conscious or they go out of business. The "excessive" use of phosphorous containing fertilizers on farms is largely a myth. Soils get limed, and nitrogen added or grown, but there is little need for extra phosphorous in most cases. Where a LOT of such fertilizers get used is on those lush green lawns favored by zoning lords and homeowner associations and golf courses. The financial constraints are not as strict and for many people excess is the norm. Those who would demand control need to look to their own back yards first.

[68vette]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

You miss my point. Back 60 years ago and earlier, there were many many dairy farms throughout the state, not just around Lake Champlain. The Waterbury area was covered with them. By the 1970s, to the best of my recollection, there were only the Keith farm, the Harvey Farm in Duxbury, the Constance Farm, and the Woodward Farm still around. All of the hill farms were gone by then. Of those, only the Harvey Farm was close enough to the Winooski to be much of a possible problem.

The period when there were a lot of farms was not a major time of problems in the Lake except the places I mentioned - I know firsthand, as I was on it every summer. The reduction in the numbers of farms had little or no effect as far as I saw. The problems in parts of Malletts Bay and Missisquoi Bay & Chapman existed, but appear to have become much more pronounced as of late, even with the limited development allowed in the state AND reduction in farms from the peak of the small dairy farm industry.

Farmers are very cost conscious or they go out of business. The "excessive" use of phosphorous containing fertilizers on farms is largely a myth. Soils get limed, and nitrogen added or grown, but there is little need for extra phosphorous in most cases. Where a LOT of such fertilizers get used is on those lush green lawns favored by zoning lords and homeowner associations and golf courses. The financial constraints are not as strict and for many people excess is the norm. Those who would demand control need to look to their own back yards first.

There are many farms around that are in proximity to the lake and waterways that feed the lake. The phosphorous that is making it to the lake is not necessarily from chemicals spread on fields, but because farmers are resourceful, they spread tons of manure on their fields and this is where the phosphorous comes from. Living here and traveling to central Vermont everyday I'm witness to it. One of the worst areas is right off the interstate in Richmond. This time of year and throughout the summer all you small is manure from the 'honey wagons". These farms are right on the Winooski River. If it rains the runoff from the fields go right into the river as well as when we have the snow melt off.
The point I was trying to make before is it doesn't just take a dairy farm to have phosphorous problems. Any farm that spreads animal waste on fields contributes and that number is growing. I have chickens and spread my manure in our gardens around the house. To a degree what I spread makes it to the lake as well. The towns around the lake were part of a study several years ago concerning pollutants in the lake. They found that you don't even have to have water running near your property to cause pollution. The soil is so sandy, when it rains, over time the chemicals, etc will eventually leach to the lake. Lawn fertilizers used miles from the lake with no river or stream access, were found in the lake in traces. The reason they were able to trace the specific fertilizer was because one specific location was allowed to use this type of fertilizer that has been outlawed in most of the state.

[j_jimerino]

Good news folks, the 360,000 gallons of raw sewage that Montpelier somehow accidentally dumped into the river and then the lake also will have little effect. Regulators: Montpelier sewage leak had little impact on lake - WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-

This information should be a real money saver to us all. I'm planning on removing my bulky and difficult to maintain septic system in favor a simple and affordable pipe that empties directly into the nearest tributary that feeds into the lake. Lake Champlain is truly and amazing gift, the (apparently self cleaning) toilet of the northeast!

[harry chickpea]

I wasn't aware of any manure spreading on the flood plain. I think I know the farm you are talking about, the one by the twin bridges. I also think a friend of a friend knows one of the daughters. If I get a chance, I might ask. Anyway - dairy cattle manure is roughly 4lbs per ton (2,000lbs) of manure. Your chickens have a much higher ratio. One possibility for increases - back in the 1960s and before, the grain rations as well as the fodder were mostly grown on-site instead of being shipped in, and there was a greater reliance on silage. With a closed cycle, there was little place for the introduction of new phosphorus sources, and it doesn't come out of thin air (unlike nitrogen).

My brother sent me that link on the sewage spill - along with a note that the mayor was downplaying it, while he had tried to eliminate kayakers from using Berlin Pond because he was afraid for HIS water supply. Makes me want to come up and take a leak...

[countrylv22]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Just saw this: Investigation into sewage seeping into Lake Champlain - WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-

360,000 gallons of sewage dumped into the Winooski River, to flow into the lake...

A sad situation....