[arel]

Ouch.

But good lessons for the rest of us.

[kanatastar]

Originally Posted by wired one

The way I see it, being a home owner and single parent/wage earner..

I work for doctors so I will never set the financial world on fire. I have neither health insurance or retirement from my job which pays reasonably well. I rent out a room in my house to make ends meet.

Between my mortgage and utilities, I would be able to do reasonably well.. IF it weren't for heating my house. Oh yes, if I lived in the south, I'd pay for cooling.. but there it is. You CAN live without AC, but try living in vermont without heat. Vermont will suck you dry one way or another. I thank god my kids are beyond daycare.. I'd be sunk for sure if I had that to pay.

Yes, I could get another job with benefits.. but I would have to take a paycut that would make paying my mortgage impossible.

I figure I need to stay for two more years till my kids are out of highschool and off to college.. then.. sure.. I'd move in a heartbeat if I could find a place that I could afford that was-

1. warmer- much warmer
2. out of the jesus belt and not bush country
4. relatively close to an airport
5. had some kind of reasonable quality of life (including technology).

Any suggestions??

Why not Raleigh NC? Everyone in the country is moving here!

[KNOTTE]

Originally Posted by Noleman

Ok,

Reading all these post about high cost of living has me a bit concerned since I might retire in Vermont in a few years. Could someone list their cost of expenses and compare to other areas? I mean what cost so much? I know taxes, taxes and more taxes. But here in Maryland I pay state income AND county income taxes. Somehow I really don't obsess with it and all and actually forget about it until I read all these posts with everyone talking about taxes and all...And how much is heating cost? Could all of these add up to making ones living expenses THAT much more than other areas? I have read people wanting to live in Virginia or the Carolina's since the taxes are low. But to me it is the other aspects of life that you pay dearly for. If that works for you fine, but not for me.

Here are a few things that I pay for here in Maryland. Love to know what people pay for in Vermont:

Gasoline: $3.20
Heating and Air: maybe average thru the year $125 month
cable: $65 per month
car insurance $550 a year ( mine is much lower than everyone else I know for some reason)
state income taxes 8% ( at least)

just a few but would like to hear back what these high costs actually amount to comparatively

We pay approx the same for gas depending on the day...
Heating and Air: Our home was completely renovated 3 years ago including new insulation and new windows (condsidered a new build for our insurance) so it is the most efficient home I've ever lived in and our heating bills run about $150 per month - we keep the thermostat at 62 - in the winter (6 months of the year). Most older homes (and most homes here are older) will cost you about $200 or more. This does NOT include electric, which for our family runs about $115 per month when not using A/C and about $150 per month when the A/C is running.

Cable/Satellite is about $80 per month
Car insurance: Ours is included with home insurance, so with that discount it's about $800 per year.

I really have no idea what our state income tax rate is, but to give you an idea on property tax.... We bought our home a year and a half ago for $192,500. It's a raised ranch - about 1600 sq ft with .25 acres of land - we pay $3485 per year for property taxes and another $175 per quarter for water and sewer.

Vermont is not cheap and the salaries are low - my husband and I are just finally - after moving back here 7 years ago - making what we were making in Connecticut. And to get there, my husband commuted from Castleton to Burlington everyday (1.5 hrs each way on bad roads). Luckily he telecommutes from our home now that we've bought our house in Rutland and he has a dedicated office.

Best of luck in your quest to move north.

[Noleman]

Thanks KNOTTE,

Utilities sound higher in Vermont although it is hard to judge since I live alone. But 62 degrees in the winter is a little chilly for me but I guess it does save on the bills. Taxes seem to be the killer in Vermont. My Townhouse is worth about $400,000 here and I only pay $2,000 a year. I have lived here since 1993 and my taxes have dropped since then. They give credit for people living in a home for a longer period of time. I think if I bought my place today the taxes would be about $4,000 still lower than Vermont. The good thing is the price of homes seem considerably less in Vermont.

[unique_aspirations]

Just a few questions.

I have heard a lot of concerns regarding cost of living being considerably higher in VT and was wondering if anyone could give some specifics for me to have some comparison. My husband and I just returned from a couple day retreat to Woodstock and we were really surprised at how much less expensive everything seemed than other similar towns in NY.

Our baseline is--we live in WNY and are a dual income professional family with no children just into our 30's. We have owned our small 1200sq.ft home for 3years the assessed value is under 80k and we currently pay $3400 in property taxes and school taxes combined each year. Our county has a 8.25% sales tax on everything except most food items, a gallon of milk is approximately $3 and our unleaded 87 grade gas is selling at $3.38 gallon today. Our salaries are relatively fixed and combined we make just under 100K.

My questions are....

1. Do people seem genuinely happy with living in VT? I understand that no one likes to pay the government their hard earned money, but can they possibly do it in VT with a clear conscious?
2.Do VT'ers genuinely look at each person as an individual with unique differences and abilities and value those differences? One person made a comment about Ben & Jerry's or Burton Snowboards....
3.Are people BASICALLY happy with the public school education system and feel that it is preparing for our future?
4.Are people genuinely more open minded and engaged citizens than other places in the country?

I know these are very subjective questions. I am a personal believer in that money doesn't buy happiness~choices do. I certainly don't want to choose a location that will jeapordize my living situation into such that I HAVE to make poor choices, but I'm seriously looking for an opportunity to spread my wings and practice what I believe. If I can make a living (which I know that I can make a compiarable living in VT that I do here in WNY) anywhere is better than here--- I'm just hoping that possibly VT is the best fit.

Any help or suggestions would be amazing.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

1. Do people seem genuinely happy with living in VT?

I feel genuinely happy living here. So does my husband. I've lived in 5 states and there is no question that Vermont is my favorite. I've been here 11 years, longer than I've lived anywhere as an adult. I plan to stay indefinitely, quite possibly for the rest of my life.

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

I understand that no one likes to pay the government their hard earned money, but can they possibly do it in VT with a clear conscious?

I consider it the cost of living here. Do I enjoy property taxes this high? Of course not. Do I approve of how the government is using them? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I'd rather pay them here than anywhere else. We visited & considered moving to NM & SW Colorado. We loved both places. The property taxes were a tiny fraction of Vermont's. But we realized that Vermont is where we're home and we're willing to pay for the privilege of living here.

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

2.Do VT'ers genuinely look at each person as an individual with unique differences and abilities and value those differences?

Too much of a generalization. There are people with prejudices and intolerance everywhere. I will say, though, that I do not "blend into the crowd" and am kind of noticeable wherever I go. Vermont treats me very well, very acceptingly. I have moved comfortably in many strata of Vermont culture. Right now I have a job doing community outreach for a relatively controversial cause and I have encountered mainly respect, even when it's respectful disagreement. It's definitely part of why I feel so at home here.

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

3.Are people BASICALLY happy with the public school education system and feel that it is preparing for our future?

Not my milieu as I have no human children, but I'll tell you what little I've seen. I like the Vermont-educated children and adults whom I know. For the past 4 years I've been mentoring a middle school student once a week as part of Everybody Wins! Vermont : What is Everybody Wins! Vermont?, and I enjoy being with my student and in the school.

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

4.Are people genuinely more open minded and engaged citizens than other places in the country?

Again, that's feeling too much like a generalization for me to answer yes or no. My experience is that people here are more open-minded and willing to tolerate or even respect differences. There may not be as much energy put into civic engagement as I've encountered elsewhere. Getting people to come out for anything is challenging unless they're seriously (unusually) riled up. (I wish people would come out for what they want rather than what they don't want, but this applies everywhere, not just VT.) Still, I also enjoy living in a place where people are not constantly in one's face about issues, disagreements, and belief to the degree I've seen elsewhere.

Here's something cool about Vermont: It's a small enough state that you can easily get to know your local, state, and federal legislators. Mine know me and are aware of my values and priorities. We have access to anyone in the Statehouse. The mayor of my city lives on my street we know him and his wife. I really enjoy all that. Some might not care about living in a close-knit state with accessible government, but if it's something you enjoy, you can find it here. You can even run for political office and have a fighting chance of being elected.

Originally Posted by unique_aspirations

I know these are very subjective questions. I am a personal believer in that money doesn't buy happiness~choices do. I certainly don't want to choose a location that will jeapordize my living situation into such that I HAVE to make poor choices, but I'm seriously looking for an opportunity to spread my wings and practice what I believe. If I can make a living (which I know that I can make a compiarable living in VT that I do here in WNY) anywhere is better than here--- I'm just hoping that possibly VT is the best fit.

You know it! Highly subjective and based on personal feelings and experiences. I do know several people here from WNY and they seem to enjoy it here as I do, and they have no plans to leave that I know of. But would it be a generalization to say that WNY people are happy here? Probably. This particular handful of people hand-picked this area and they love it. I am from SFla, my husband from CT, and we love it.

Oh, that reminds me. Relative cost of living: I have a client who spends 6 months of the year here and 6 months in Florida, in a town I know well. She talks about the inexpensive and variable bounty at the FL groceries, compared with Vermont's. But the traffic where she lives is indescribable, the city is so crowded that spending just a day there gives me agita, and there is almost no local food to be had. Oh, and they're running out of fresh water. I don't care how cheap it is or how low the property taxes are; I wouldn't spend a month there.

In contrast, I buy nearly all my food at the local Co-op and farmer's market. I will not pay any price (no matter how cheap) to consume GMO food grown with chemicals & pesticides, picked by low-wage workers, and transported thousands of miles so corporate officers can get big bonuses and stock options as they pollute our country and others. I'd generally avoid the slightly better option of buying corporate organic food from far away as well.

Instead, in Vermont, I pay Vermonters and other New Englanders somewhat higher prices than I'd pay at the grocery, and I get much better food. I also buy seconds and bulk as much as possible (these seconds are better than "firsts" at the grocery, IMO). My husband and I eat very well and our food money stays in the region, supporting the work of our neighbors and the beautiful land here. I have met many of the people who grow what I eat. Even my cats' food comes farmers who live just 45 minutes away in NY State.

My dairy products come from somewhere so wonderful that we love running out of milk so we can visit the farmer and his cows and cats to pick up fresh product as often as possible. I feel so good about buying dairy and eggs local, lovingly tended animals that I went from being vegan to vegetarian because for me, corporate organic vegan margarine compared poorly with local, caring, small dairy. (I'm still vegan at restaurants and if I don't know the dairy/egg sources.) Much more about that here: A Visit to Farmer John and His Family

It's possible that I could enjoy all this in some other state, maybe even a state with lower property taxes. But I feel at home in Vermont and plan on staying.

[possumator]

HUD fair market rents for various metropolitan statistical areas: http://www.huduser.org/datasets/fmr/..._SCHEDULEB.pdf
For determining incomes, I suggest doing a search on Careerbuilder, or Monster, as only you know how to determine potential income for a given location.

Legend = 0 BR 1 BR 2 BR 3 BR 4 BR (existing housing, not brand new housing!!!!)

Vermont
Burlington-South Burlington, VT MSA............... 729 807 1013 1297 1454

Colorado
Boulder, CO MSA................................... 688 797 1000 1458 1748
Colorado Springs, CO HMFA......................... 563 631 797 1137 1345
*Denver-Aurora, CO MSA............................ 607 692 876 1244 1450
Fort Collins-Loveland, CO MSA..................... 555 666 807 1175 1369
Grand Junction, CO MSA............................ 505 506 608 885 1070
Greeley, CO MSA................................... 503 533 652 951 1122
Pueblo, CO MSA.................................... 475 500 657 861 974
Teller County, CO HMFA............................ 577 675 888 1293 1558

Oregon
Bend, OR MSA...................................... 529 614 732 1067 1099
Corvallis, OR MSA................................. 496 601 749 1088 1252
Eugene-Springfield, OR MSA........................ 495 600 760 1063 1183
Medford, OR MSA................................... 489 581 730 1062 1094
Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA MSA........... 565 655 757 1102 1324
Salem, OR MSA..................................... 478 531 635 923 1113

Virginia
Blacksburg-Christiansburg-Radford, VA HMFA........ 521 571 639 877 1123
Charlottesville, VA MSA........................... 595 716 847 1098 1215
Danville, VA MSA.................................. 379 435 561 700 751
Franklin County, VA HMFA.......................... 347 416 535 640 682
Giles County, VA HMFA............................. 348 452 535 682 941
Harrisonburg, VA MSA.............................. 480 533 649 909 934
Kingsport-Bristol-Bristol, TN-VA MSA.............. 401 431 535 717 857
Louisa County, VA HMFA............................ 570 647 737 881 907
Lynchburg, VA MSA................................. 481 494 595 734 819
Pulaski County, VA HMFA........................... 406 429 535 767 824
*Richmond, VA HMFA................................ 719 779 870 1161 1386


Arizona
Flagstaff, AZ MSA................................. 753 896 1012 1301 1641
Lake Havasu City-Kingman, AZ MSA.................. 564 620 723 1000 1116
*Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ MSA.................. 609 715 862 1256 1498
Prescott, AZ MSA.................................. 627 648 818 1192 1221
*Tucson, AZ MSA................................... 501 588 769 1110 1246
Yuma, AZ MSA...................................... 527 622 743 1054 1291

Washington
Bellingham, WA MSA................................ 549 606 760 1109 1249
Bremerton-Silverdale, WA MSA...................... 577 647 797 1141 1246
Kennewick-Richland-Pasco, WA MSA.................. 484 528 662 895 1061
Lewiston, ID-WA MSA............................... 461 479 599 851 1036
Longview, WA MSA.................................. 430 541 628 915 1043
Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA MSA.................... 551 682 846 1157 1444
Olympia, WA MSA................................... 542 609 778 1130 1366
Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA MSA........... 565 655 757 1102 1324
Seattle-Bellevue, WA HMFA......................... 687 783 942 1331 1626
Spokane, WA MSA................................... 437 512 674 925 1049
*Tacoma, WA HMFA.................................. 581 678 845 1231 1385
Wenatchee, WA MSA................................. 500 529 669 902 1039

North Carolina
Anson County, NC HMFA............................. 462 496 555 780 824
Asheville, NC HMFA................................ 521 609 695 931 1220
Burlington, NC MSA................................ 599 619 722 980 1010
Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC-SC HMFA............ 615 667 740 932 1085
Durham, NC HMFA................................... 518 710 796 1040 1122
Fayetteville, NC HMFA............................. 546 591 660 937 1109
Goldsboro, NC MSA................................. 423 501 587 735 982
Greene County, NC HMFA............................ 461 462 555 784 810
Greensboro-High Point, NC HMFA.................... 565 645 719 911 974
Greenville, NC HMFA............................... 488 506 624 865 893
Haywood County, NC HMFA........................... 494 495 617 799 1034
Hickory-Lenoir-Morganton, NC MSA.................. 495 520 598 767 893
Hoke County, NC HMFA.............................. 507 551 610 835 1018
Jacksonville, NC MSA.............................. 501 537 603 847 994
Pender County, NC HMFA............................ 501 503 605 796 818
Person County, NC HMFA............................ 485 487 587 701 804
Raleigh-Cary, NC MSA.............................. 639 717 797 1002 1038
Rockingham County, NC HMFA........................ 454 480 569 707 729
Rocky Mount, NC MSA............................... 361 436 555 689 710
*Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC MSA... 749 787 904 1247 1561
Wilmington, NC HMFA............................... 575 635 767 1075 1105
Winston-Salem, NC MSA............................. 494 563 652 889 1045

[chrismpv]

Interesting website:
Cost of Living - Cost of Living Calculator from CNNMoney
the calculator request your salary and where you live and where you wish to move to and it tells you the cost of living difference.

[LACowboy]

I'm in Los Angeles, California and those prices seem like a dream to me

Gas - highest in the country because of the state and local taxes
My (heating) gas bill was $240 last month
My electrical bill runs between $400 and $700 a month
My cable bill is $135
My car insurance is over $4,000 a year
They charge for garbage collection - $210 a month
state income taxes are 11%
My property taxes are over $14,000 a year

Vermont is a bargain

[CarolL]

Originally Posted by chrismpv

Interesting website:
Cost of Living - Cost of Living Calculator from CNNMoney
the calculator request your salary and where you live and where you wish to move to and it tells you the cost of living difference.

I just wasted 15 minutes playing with this... Hard to believe that living in the Chicago area, where my property taxes on a $300K condo are $6K, and where the condo is losing value daily, where gas is $3.30 a gallon, and where we reportedly have the highest utility rates in the country -- is still cheaper than living in VT or ME and only slightly higher than western NY state. We've been planning to retire to New England in a couple of years (we lived there in a previous life), but I'm not so sure now.

BTW, the calculator would compare us to only one city in VT -- Burlington. Would that make a difference? If we lived in, say, Brattleboro, would the cost of living be less than Burlington?

Oy.