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Old 06-23-2014, 04:20 PM
 
48 posts, read 76,841 times
Reputation: 15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalYankee View Post
It's trendy not to work doncha know. Vermont doesn't want anyone moving here who actually works for a living. That would be SO gauche. Retirees and welfare bums are the only people moving here and the only type of new Vermonter the administration considers desirable. Anything else would cause pollution and / or traffic.


😂 , A state that discourages working??

*Moves To Vermont*


Actually I've already lived in Vermont. It is HARD on the working poor, VERY HARD. High cost of living relative to wages mainly because of the high price of housing. In order to qualify for subsidized housing you have to have children and there is still a waiting list. Yes there are welfare bums mainly single mothers and some families.

I say stop discriminating against people with no children, make the families work, send the children to sweatshops for all I care they need to lose some weight, and us poor blokes who can't attract any women need housing too. WE can't even GET ON the waiting list, it's ILLEGAL to give subsidized housing to a poor man who is single with no children.

VERMONT mainly welcome rich ew yorkers who buy summer houses or retire there; driving up the real-estate prices and housing costs for the broke locals aka "townies" so they have to move away.

 
Old 06-23-2014, 04:33 PM
 
48 posts, read 76,841 times
Reputation: 15
Hmmm, maybe I SHOULD look closer at upstate New York, but I do believe the taxes there are worse than Vermont. Although perhaps one can at least find a job in NY that will pay well enough to allow you to pay your taxes!


Aside from the outrageous cost of housing in Vermont (due to previously mentioned ew yorkers buying numerous summer homes and whatnot) I think Vermont is just too rural. I mean Burlington is the biggest city what's the population... 40,000 !?

How do you operate a business if there's no people around to buy your products, or the people that are around can hardly afford to put a roof over their head?

The rich ew yorkers who own all the nice houses are looking to relax by the trees, go hiking, or just enjoy the scenery not necessarily to support the local economy, plus they're only there in the summer.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 68vette View Post
FrugalYankee, your words sound harsh and out of line, but you make a good point. We need to look at the bottom line. There are more and more good paying businesses that are leaving the state and more and more of our prized students who are leaving the state.
The low unemployment rate and job growth we have had do not mean much. If you look at the jobs created, they are primarily lower paying service jobs. Nothing to brag about. Look at what has left already, Tubbs, Merrell, Karhu, Mad River Canoe, Isis, Garmont and these are just outdoor companies. Just in the past few months there was Kennametal, Vermont Flexible Tubing Co, Plasan Carbon Composites, Huber Huber + Suhner, the IBM layoff just to name a few and we can't forget Vermont Yankee. The lost income from that one employer is staggering. The operation of Yankee through 2032 would have resulted in more than $2 billion in payroll, the state would collect in excess of $227 million in tax revenues and local governments would collect another $67 million in property tax revenues. Disposable income of all Vermont residents would have been $55.8 million higher than otherwise due to operation of Vermont Yankee. Our worst business enemy is now next door. NYS has more tax and business incentives than most people could shake a stick at. They are one of the fastest growing states in the country for business growth. I would not be surprised if Globalfoundries Inc closed the Essex plant and moved to NY. They already have a location in Albany. Moving more of their business there may give them a better tax deal yet.
After the depressing Business outlook, we have the heart of the problem our state refuses to address. "The brain drain." Vermont ranks at the bottom nationally for the percentage of its citizens between the ages of 25 and 29, and at the top in the percentage aged 50 to 54. We now have the highest percentage of high school grads who leave the state for college and work and despite the more than 20,000 young people who flock into Vermont each year to attend one of 24 schools, about 80 percent of those college grads move away within one year of graduation.
 
Old 06-23-2014, 05:09 PM
 
221 posts, read 266,163 times
Reputation: 375
You are looking only at the demand side and forgetting about the supply side. There are two sides to the coin...less people also mean less competing businesses.

We have been living in Vermont for almost a year now and own our own businesses and still do not see the high cost of living most people are talking about, except for in housing which I admit is a little ridiculous. I think it is an extreme case of the grass is always greener on the other side - people in Vermont don't seem to realize it is not a whole lot better out there and in many cases it is worse.
 
Old 06-24-2014, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Winter Springs, FL
1,789 posts, read 4,065,324 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriz View Post
You are looking only at the demand side and forgetting about the supply side. There are two sides to the coin...less people also mean less competing businesses.

We have been living in Vermont for almost a year now and own our own businesses and still do not see the high cost of living most people are talking about, except for in housing which I admit is a little ridiculous. I think it is an extreme case of the grass is always greener on the other side - people in Vermont don't seem to realize it is not a whole lot better out there and in many cases it is worse.
I'm not sure how many states you have lived in, or if you are comparing what you experienced in Israel. The only way you can feel the difference in the COL is if you have lived outside of the Northeast US. Even then there are huge differences. Housing is mindblowing, but everyone knows that. Utilities are much more expensive in Vermont than other parts of the country as is food and taxes. There are trade-offs without question and people have to judge those trade-offs on an individual basis. Vermont is a small population rural state. People are not knocking down the door to move here for many reasons (in fact, Vermont is one of two states with a population loss during the last census) and cost is one of them. There is a large amount of data that the Federal government as well as private organizations have published regarding COL in Vermont or the Northeast vs other parts of the country. Much of this information can actually be pulled from census data. I was fortunate to live in the state 20 years ago when it was the affordable state to move to in the Northeast with a lot to offer. Now it's turning into a huge trade-off. I love the state and what it has to offer, but in my income bracket, I'm on the verge of being forced out. Do I live in a state that is nickle and diming me to death or do I find someplace similar that is more affordable? I want to retire at a young age with enough money to live a comfortable life and enjoy retired life. I don't want to work until I'm in my 70's and live paycheck to paycheck. In my situation, I pay the full ride in Vermont. I don't get one tax break or prebate. I can't even figure out how to work my taxes to break even with the state. I can get $5-6000 back from the Fed, but still owe the state close to $1000 every year. Then there is the ever increasing property taxes which are not only breaking me, but the number one reason why so many budgets were shot down this year.
This morning on the radio there was an IBM executive who was giving an interview on the future of IBM or at least the plant in Vermont. What happens is in the air. IBM looked at the cost of doing business in Vermont and it does not look good. Electricity in Vermont is three times more expensive at the Essex plant than the massive plant in Fishkill, NY.
 
Old 06-24-2014, 10:26 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,947 posts, read 22,263,271 times
Reputation: 9051
Vermont is way too expensive. Just compare VT with Maine, a rather similar state in many ways. Stay away from the coast in Maine and real estate is significantly cheaper and property taxes are lower. ME is still a heavily taxed state but I doubt a ME property tax bill would ever come near a VT bill. I would say neither is good in terms of jobs, but you could get by a lot easier where it's more affordable.

Property taxes need to be brought under control here. Somehow, real estate prices need to be brought under control as well. I'm not sure how to do that, either drive out the resorts or tax profits on real estate so high no one wants to sell it for more than they paid, but until housing is affordable the state will be a disaster in the making. Depending on Canada for our electricity isn't the brightest move in the world either.
 
Old 06-24-2014, 02:43 PM
 
221 posts, read 266,163 times
Reputation: 375
When I was comparing it I wasn't comparing it to any one specific place, state or country...which is why I said in many cases it is worse - I meant whether it be a state or a country - that's irrelevant to me as I'm not necessarily comparing it just to the rest of the nation but rather everywhere. In the US I lived in two other places - Boston, and Milwaukee. Even Milwaukee is not all that much cheaper than VT, maybe 10% cheaper(like I said except for housing). Boston is of course more expensive. I have also visited many other places(europe, etc) that are not much cheaper. I'm not saying Burlington is like Dallas...cause it's not. But that's the trade off.

As far as IBM and the economy goes - honestly, in the next few years I think it will be not only a Vermont problem. Part of what I do for a living is trade the market and that involves alot of research(I'm a research oriented person which is why I believe so much that they should research the health care issue) almost on a daily basis about past, present and future going back hundreds of years of data at times. My belief despite all this talk about a recovery is that the economy is headed towards a time that will make 2008-9 look like a walk in the park. How is all that going to affect vermont? Hard to say at this point but for the most part it seems in the last couple decades in Vermont the highs aren't as high but the lows aren't as low either as the rest of the country. BTW this will also mean that property prices will resume their decline, nationally.

Those are my two cents.
 
Old 06-25-2014, 09:02 AM
 
809 posts, read 677,551 times
Reputation: 1333
By my reckoning there is $32 billion in private property in Vermont which escapes the property tax.

And as far as taxation in general goes, we all tend to be whiners because we forget what it used to be like: When Brutus and Antony had their final shoot-out in Achaea, both sides conducted a provisional and extemporaneous 85% tax on the locals to pay for the slaughter.

Good government costs, and in general, Vermont has very good government. I think we should keep it that way.

"Republicans campaign on the premise that government is bad for you; when elected, they proceed to prove it." --Thomas Frank, What's the Matter with Kansas?
 
Old 06-25-2014, 10:21 AM
 
317 posts, read 585,144 times
Reputation: 380
Well in the next year or two the state will have a new bucket of money to draw from when they make pot legal. Look at the millions Colorado has already reported.
So you have the Governor talking about opiates and Heroin but shortly Vermont as well as many other states will allow this sham to go through all for the money.

I haven't smoked pot in years but if you think it's not a gateway drug you're just fooling yourself.
 
Old 06-25-2014, 01:53 PM
 
809 posts, read 677,551 times
Reputation: 1333
As Barney Frank once said, "Everything is a gateway drug."

Full disclosure: I smoked, but I never enjoyed it.

Did smoking pot ruin your life?

As with alcohol, tobacco, heroin, caffeine and just about everything else except crystal meth, it is possible to be a pot addict and still function. About 85% of alcoholics function well. Phillip Seymour Hoffman is the classic example of a high-functioning heroin addict.

The problems with substance abuse are addiction and commerce. It would be nice if children were given the opportunity to understand what their susceptibility to addiction is and what the consequences can be; it might give them a chance to make better choices when faced with situations.

The commerce in substance abuse promotes its spread. Prohibition created the Cosa Nostra, an organization which (like today's Mexican cartels) spread out into other areas when liquor sales became legal again. Decriminalize substance abuse, treat abusers the same way we treat alcohol abusers, divert the moneys going to create SWAT teams in every Vermont town into recovery programs, and supply the public through a state-controlled (hence, no incentive to recruit ever more and more customers) system of production, distribution and pricing.

Sure, we'll have abusers, but we won't have smugglers, we won't have gunplay, and we will have tax revenues!
 
Old 06-25-2014, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Winter Springs, FL
1,789 posts, read 4,065,324 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
As Barney Frank once said, "Everything is a gateway drug."

Full disclosure: I smoked, but I never enjoyed it.

Did smoking pot ruin your life?

As with alcohol, tobacco, heroin, caffeine and just about everything else except crystal meth, it is possible to be a pot addict and still function. About 85% of alcoholics function well. Phillip Seymour Hoffman is the classic example of a high-functioning heroin addict.

The problems with substance abuse are addiction and commerce. It would be nice if children were given the opportunity to understand what their susceptibility to addiction is and what the consequences can be; it might give them a chance to make better choices when faced with situations.

The commerce in substance abuse promotes its spread. Prohibition created the Cosa Nostra, an organization which (like today's Mexican cartels) spread out into other areas when liquor sales became legal again. Decriminalize substance abuse, treat abusers the same way we treat alcohol abusers, divert the moneys going to create SWAT teams in every Vermont town into recovery programs, and supply the public through a state-controlled (hence, no incentive to recruit ever more and more customers) system of production, distribution and pricing.

Sure, we'll have abusers, but we won't have smugglers, we won't have gunplay, and we will have tax revenues!
I think you are looking at the substance abuse issue a little too simple when it comes to kids. I have meet very few kids who could make any sort of responsible rational decisions on their own. It all has to do with their development as people. The human brain continues to develope until you are in your mid to late twenties and in some cases into your thirties. The frontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls reasoning and helps us think before we act, develops later. This part of the brain is still changing and maturing well into adulthood. This is why kids/teens act on impulse, misread or misinterpret social cues and emotions, get into trouble, involved in fights and engage in dangerous or risky behavior. Remember the old saying, "when you are young, you are bulletproof."

The mafia was around long, long before prohibition. Yes, they capitalized on it, but everyone did and still does. One of the problems with legalization is there will be people who produce without paying taxes. Look at the moonshine industry. It's bigger than ever and the government is pooring money into law enforcement to still try and stop it. Instead of the legality issue, it's now because of the tax issue. If you think Colorado is coming close to collecting most taxes on pot sold, that would be far from the truth. Therein lies the problem. The producer who is growing without paying the government taxes can sell it cheaper as well as the Mexican cartels who smuggle it across the border. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's still not smuggled. In fact it could make it harder to stop smuggling.
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