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I have noticed that Vermonters I have met (native and transplanted) seem more gentle, laid back and relaxed than New Yorkers, and less competitive, in-your face, and angry. I do find the New England reserve a little unnerving at times. Sometimes it feels like rejection. But I know it is a cultural thing, not to be taken personally.
I've spent a lot of time in Vermont, including my college years. Even 12 years later, I look at it fondly, without a doubt.
Now, contrast that to NY. I grew up there, and moved back just 2 weeks before 9/11. I left NY permanently in 2003, because I felt this anger that was simply intolerable to me. People yelling for no reason whatsoever, people coming up behind me on the sidewalks of Manhattan and yelling at me for "not walking fast enough".
So, yes, I see what you're getting at. I see it as a "NY-thing", and an especially "post-9/11 NY-thing". I don't think that you're romanticizing Vermont at all. It, like most places in the US now, is simply a "nicer" place to live.
I've always found NYC folks very friendly. Hurried suburbanites in the city are another story. Vermonters are friendly too, but somewhat reserved. My wife and I were Christmas shopping in the Albany NY area, and so many people made friendly chit-chat with us. We realized we weren't in Vermont anymore.
You are so right. I tend to be quite chatty and sometimes I catch Vermonters looking at me curiously. They just let me rattle on and have never been rude to me about it. I don't mind being one of the higher-octane people around. Heck, I was high-octane in NY & Miami, too. :-)
Although my stay in Vermont was sheer torture, this is one of the things
I will miss. For me, a dedicated bicycle commuter..... rain, snow, sleet etc,
Vermont had the nicest, most respectful drivers of anywhere I have ever
lived on the East Coast. This is a huge quality of life issue for someone
like me so coming here(Fl.) to the absolute worst, most angry and deadly
driving in the world, I miss Vermont drivers, daily. Usually, if you had
problems with someone in VT, a white plate was always present
IMO people are basically the same everywhere. You have the same proportion of rude people in NYC as you do in Vermont (nice people too). They are just more scattered so you run into them less often but you will run into them (transplant and native). In NYC you can interact with more people in one day than you can in one week or even a month in VT. You just have a stronger memory of the rude ones. If the people in NYC were as courteous as those in VT the place would stand still. It is easier to be courteous in VT.
It is true that folks in rural areas are more friendly in general, but it has been my experience that they can be very reserved also which actually is not a bad thing. Then again I have experienced this in many other states which I have been in as well. With the exception of a core group who get their knickers in a knot over issues large and small most folks here will be courteous and don't really care where you hail from as many areas of Vermont are actually made up of more transplants than not. I know from my hiking experiences that folks from the more rural, hence less transplants, were much more easy going and friendly than in certain other towns. As far as the NYC things goes, it's NYC with congestion and tons of other issues which just makes for a more stressful lifestyle. However, for a good period in my old neighborhood we had some very nice and caring neighbors and I got along with all of them, but they have all by now passed away or moved out. On my last visit to the area I drove through the area and was disgusted on how decrepit and dirty it has become, but I am sure that there are of course some very nice people concealed behind the steel bars and window grates, but this is not the way to live at least for me. For anyone who has lived in NYC and Long Island and can reference back over the past 40 to 50 years will know and can understand.
Yes. I remember unlocked doors as a child in Brooklyn. Now, every door has at least 2 (or more) deadbolt locks, and homes often have an alarm system, security doors and/or window grates. Across the street from a place where I work, there are row houses with even some porches grated. Very disturbing and sad.
On my block, there used to be a nice sense of community. Now I hardly know anyone. Some old time neighbors are friendly and help each other out when necessary, but the old intimacy is gone.
I think almost everyone I grew up with has moved away. I should have moved away a long time ago, but something has held me back. Other than inertia and fear of making a mistake, I think there is a part of me that loves New York and Brooklyn. Also, it is home. Brattleboro still feels alien at times, although I'm sure it will feel less so as I spend more time there.
New Yorkers can be wonderful. I can talk to people anywhere. If I am having trouble reading a Spanish sign on the subway, for example, I can ask the nearest Hispanic for help. People love to share their culture.
But the casual rudeness here, on the road and in the stores, can be jarring, enraging, depressing and isolating. And you always have maintain a certain guardedness and distrust with people you don't know well. My friend in Brattleboro has commented on my suspiciousness, and said that she has seen that quality in other New Yorkers.
When I'm in Vermont, though, I sometimes feel I have to walk on eggshells so as not to alienate natives with my New York ways. I don't want to run into anyone with their knickers in a knot! Knotted knickers? Nah. Seriously, though, I think I do get self-conscious at times. The White Plate Waddle vs. Knotted Knickers! And the Knotted Knickers have eyes and they are watching! (Or they just holes in the belt?)
Thank goodness for Bernie Sanders' Brooklyn accent. BTW, he and I went to the same high school.
You can be less mellow here, but some things can be grating for a newcomer to learn--you must plan more for distance and weather. My husband has been trying to sort out something with our car now for 2 months. He has to drive 45 minutes to a more populated area for DMV, not 10 or whatever. These things can be frustrating.
This should be you can be MORE mellow here.(VT)..people are laid back overall that I have encountered. I must have been asleep when I wrote it..lol..
Also don't worry about alienating yourself. I mean, the open minded person, someone you want to be friends with, is not concerned with 'how you speak' as long as you are respectful and interesting, which I think you are, Arel.
Sometimes I feel like I am doing the NY thing but I have to say I am pretty good with accents and I usually start mimicking (very easily, I am not aware of it) the person I am speaking with..the other day at the store I started bursting into this New England/NH accent out of the blue..?)
I have met a few transplants as I get settled in...a few from CA, in fact. Some who lived here, moved away, and came back.
I should have moved away a long time ago, but something has held me back. Other than inertia and fear of making a mistake, I think there is a part of me that loves New York and Brooklyn. Also, it is home. Brattleboro still feels alien at times, although I'm sure it will feel less so as I spend more time there.
I can relate to this! No matter how positive an anticipated change, the comfort of the familiar remains strong. After I've lived somewhere, I'm imbued with that place and its imbued with me. No matter how I feel about the place, anywhere else is kind of not-home. That's the power of conserving what is.
I don't know how to be certain that one is making the right choice when it comes to a move. There's also what happens when we get there: who we meet, how our interactions go, the success (or lack thereof) of our plans and goals. The only way I think we can know is by living somewhere long enough to get a sense of, "Wow, this is home." If that never comes, perhaps it's time to rethink the move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arel
New Yorkers can be wonderful. I can talk to people anywhere. If I am having trouble reading a Spanish sign on the subway, for example, I can ask the nearest Hispanic for help. People love to share their culture.
In my experience, you really can do that here, although you're unlikely to find anything in Spanish or of an obviously different culture. The differences between people are subtler for sure. And there's no strong cultural identity that I'm aware of, more of a melting pot. That's not for everyone. I grew up in S. Florida. I've lived in NY & Boston. And I do miss the diversity (and the restaurants!). But I'm far more comfortable in Vermont so it's a worthwhile tradeoff for me. I do not foresee leaving Vermont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arel
When I'm in Vermont, though, I sometimes feel I have to walk on eggshells so as not to alienate natives with my New York ways. I don't want to run into anyone with their knickers in a knot! Knotted knickers? Nah. Seriously, though, I think I do get self-conscious at times.
LOL! I kind of feel that way everywhere. What would it matter if I moved and felt that way in a new place? Seriously, I haven't found Vermonters to offend easily. I've also learned that people being quiet does not necessarily mean they're offended, much as I might like them to be enthusiastic when talking with me. Quiet might mean they're thinking. Some of my work is with organizations involved in issues that raise a lot of emotion. Still, I've found that people here do not tend to lash out when approached with a viewpoint that they don't share. Just my experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arel
Thank goodness for Bernie Sanders' Brooklyn accent. BTW, he and I went to the same high school.
I enjoy hearing Bernie's accent, too. Makes me feel a little more at home. I will say, though, that at least one lifelong Vermonter tells me that she and her friends cringe every time they hear Bernie talk and cannot understand how he got elected here. Upon reflection, I think at least partly they disagree with his politics and so they pick on his accent. But there is a kind of sensitivity in Vermont to what city people are perceived to be doing to Vermont. And of course whenever you say "city people," the image of the New York skyline appears. Still, there are so many tri-state area people now living in Vermont that it's pretty homey for all. You find a mix of attitudes and ways people may treat you, as you would anywhere.
Something funny I heard on NPR: A writer settled in Vermont and raised his children here. He asked a neighbor, a farmer with many generations of Vermont history, "My kids were born here. Aren't they Vermonters?" The farmer replied, "Just because the cat had her kittens in the oven doesn't make 'em muffins." (As a spay/neuter advocate, I find that especially amusing. :-))
At the risk of being politically incorrect, I'll say that an area's ethnic background can determine how open, or vocal people can be. I grew up in a suburban area with lots of irish and italians. LOTS of loud talk, hugging, kissing, talk about personal matters, drama etc. My wife grew up in a rural area with people of dutch and german backgrounds. Handshakes instead of hugs, quiet, reserved. It's not that they're any less friendly than anyone else, that's just how they've been raised. Some of my relatives would assume
that my wife's relatives were unfriendly or dull. Her relatives would probably assume my relatives are insane.
Quickdraw..
Your point is well taken. My husband is British and he likes the 'mind your own business' and 'reserve' of many of the people we have come across. This is how British people are and being in an area of mainly people with names like Smith, Jones, and so forth, you can see the 'cultural differences.'
I do like the 'free to be you and me attitude' here. I recently found out that my son's class does not require the 'pledge' to be said. (I am not sure how this works--if it is up to the school principal or whatever). I also like that if you are not religious no one gets up in arms and looks at you like you are the most evil person walking the earth.
Finally, you can be a vegetarian and no one thinks you are nuts...you don't know what a relief that is for me. Our Pricechopper has a huge assortment of vegetarian items (better than my 'old suburban NY' store). In addition you can go to the Co-op for things of this nature.
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