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Old 08-11-2014, 09:29 AM
 
57 posts, read 82,785 times
Reputation: 63

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Joe, the problems are the regulations. There are a lot more in Vermont than New Hampshire. Testing, curriculum check-ins, etc. It is one of the most restrictive states. The issue is freedom and it is an affront to my libertarian beliefs. I choose to opt out of government schools (an option originally put there by parents, not as a mandate,) so I resent any oversight by them. I do not believe in "guilty until proven innocent" and, of course, I can't stand their terrible standards. It's not front-page news that government schools are failing all over the country. I don't want to be harnessed by a terrible system or by a government that has no business in this personal decision. Ultimately, it is an issue of who do these children belong to -- the parents? Or the state? And who decides? This is part of my "Live Free or Die" mentality (not unusual in this community.)

Timberline is wrong about government educated kids, overall, being equal to their privately/home-schooled counter-parts. Colleges, of course, know this. I suppose statists have an invested interest in keeping a tight government reign on the people of Vermont, but it IS a problem for the state and people are definitely moving out and staying away because of it (well beyond the homeschool community.) Statism is not a badge of honor, but a disturbing true reflection on the lower population of the Vermont. (It might keep more people out than the weather.) It's just something that I thought the people of Vermont should know (since they still have voting rights.) There is a chance that Timberline does not speak for everyone there.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:01 AM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,171,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post

Timberline is wrong about government educated kids, overall, being equal to their privately/home-schooled counter-parts. Colleges, of course, know this. I suppose statists have an invested interest in keeping a tight government reign on the people of Vermont, but it IS a problem for the state and people are definitely moving out and staying away because of it (well beyond the homeschool community.) Statism is not a badge of honor, but a disturbing true reflection on the lower population of the Vermont. (It might keep more people out than the weather.) It's just something that I thought the people of Vermont should know (since they still have voting rights.) There is a chance that Timberline does not speak for everyone there.

And some major reading comprehension fail right there.

I really hope you are not the one doing the educating.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:28 AM
 
5,911 posts, read 6,714,947 times
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I am guessing that your point, OP, goes over my head.

Up front, home schooling is generally a poor choice for educating young people as it removes them from many of the social, academic, recreational, medical and community activities which are, by current definition, part of the public school process. Too many whackos use home schooling for parochial, rebellious, or the "my child is special" agendas as well. That certainly doesn't serve the overall population (society) well, except in very limited circumstances.

But, Let's put that stuff aside. For whatever reason (and I believe you are certainly entitled to your reasons) you have chosen to home school your child.

Who provides the structure for that education? Who determines that your program is rigorous and will produce something other than another uneducated leach who gobbles up social programs at an alarming rate? Who determines that your child is receiving proper medical care (such as vaccinations)? Who determines that your child is reaching milestones for their age? What happens when the child fails and you throw up your hands at age 12?

Rhetorical questions, to be sure. But you can see my point, and hence the point of the state. The child is not alone in this world. They are part of the greater community. Sure, be a standout musician, author, mathematician, or what have you. But if that doesn't work out, as is the case for the majority of children, then we ALL have a stake in your child. That's the way our society works. We do things for the greater good of ALL, not just some who are 'special'.

I am not familiar with Vermont's particular regulations regarding home schooling, although I did live there for a few years and don't recall any significant hue and cry about oppressive home schooling regulations. But wouldn't the 'state' want/need/should know that each of their children are being educated appropriately? And what is it exactly about satisfying those needs which is prohibiting you from home schooling your child in Vermont?
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:28 AM
 
48 posts, read 46,664 times
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Judging by the tone of your posts, I'd say you'd be better off in New Hampshire.

The word "Freedom" is getting thrown around far too much these days, and always for the wrong reasons, by mostly the wrong people.

Have a nice day!
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:36 AM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,171,344 times
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Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post
Unfulfilled hopes are painful, timberline. Well, your discomfort of the facts is secondary to my rights (even if expressing it is a mere deflection.)

A terrible example of a complete sentence: "And some major reading comprehension fail right there."

I'm sorry that the data does not align with your beliefs. The facts are, the data shows that when factors such as economic status, educational levels of the parents/homeschoolers, etc are all corrected for, there is no statistical significant difference between public school outcomes and home school outcomes.

Your wanting there to be a difference, or your believing there is a difference, does not change that.

Nor does your egregious misrepresentation of my statement make your position any more valid.

I wish your children well in the face of the hurdles they face.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:00 AM
 
43,012 posts, read 92,294,185 times
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I want states to oversee homeschooling education, and Vermont has very reasonable homeschooling regulations. There has to be standards because society has a vested interest in the future workforce having basic skills. Since you're more then welcome to exceed the standards, claiming the standards are inferior is an illogical reason to avoid them. I question the competency of any homeschooling parent who doesn't want their children tested.

I fully support homeschooling until I remember there are parents who want to isolate their children from world views and create little mini-me's who are incapable of forming their own intellectual conclusions. These are usually the parents who are screaming about freedoms. Even then, I really don't care if they homeschool their children as long as they don't end up on welfare when they're adults.

I agree with the poster who said the tone of your posts indicates you wouldn't be a good match for Vermont.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:22 AM
 
57 posts, read 82,785 times
Reputation: 63
Ted Bear and Hopes, I would LOVE to discuss those things in detail with you, but I don't think this is the forum for that. I will say that the concerns Ted expressed have largely been debunked. Lame, personal, deflective attacks by timberline notwithstanding, my purpose was to inform Vermonters that these particular laws are a deterrent for some families to migrate to your state -- families who would actually contribute to the coffers in more ways than one.

Hopes, "my tone" is freedom. The desire to raise and educate my children as I see fit without state oversight. All kinds of people homeschool and I don't personally know anyone who isolates their children from the world. I would say that half of the people I know are religious homeschoolers and the rest are a mix of Libertarian and far left hippie-types (the latter the most apt to isolate and enter a non-structured, counter-cultural, "unschooling" mode.) I do not agree with the mentality, "Guilty until proven innocent," but I can assure you that my children will not end up on welfare.

(I am truly astonished at the comment: "freedom is getting thrown around far too much these days.")

Yes, this all being said, you affirm what I knew and indicated in my OP: We (middle-class, freedom-loving, tax-paying citizens) are not a fit for Vermont. It seems that only certain political, wealthy types are truly welcome. (The poorest need not apply either via the welfare comment.) Thanks for saying it out loud.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:46 AM
 
150 posts, read 177,438 times
Reputation: 415
I'll never understand why some people, when they can't get exactly what they want--when and how they want it--claim their rights (personal freedoms!) are being unfairly restricted, and, because of this, everyone else should rise up in righteous indignation and come to their side.

And yes, I'm referring to you YankeeMom. I hope you find the libertarian sanctuary you seek.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
16,833 posts, read 29,110,966 times
Reputation: 7397
Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post
I never knew of a state that would actively keep working middle-class taxpayers out and, what? Court the welfare crowd? Or just the rich? That's all that is left in Socialist Utopia, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post

timberline, I'm afraid that you need to do a little study and see how well homeschooled students compare to their government school counter-parts (the ones where the teachers and kids know the difference between residents and residence.) You might also wonder why colleges (including the Ivy League) are actively courting those kids (including mine.)


Your spouse isn't taking a position in VT because you find the homeschooling regulations in this Socialist Utopia to be too restrictive, yet you mention Ivy League schools -- those bastions of liberalism which educate creators of Socialist Utopias -- are courting your child?
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:35 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 92,294,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post
...my purpose was to inform Vermonters that these particular laws are a deterrent for some families to migrate to your state -- families who would actually contribute to the coffers in more ways than one.
As I aptly pointed out in a previous post, Vermont's homeschooling laws are only deterring an extremely small number of people. Anyone who takes a job someone rejects is going to actually contribute to the coffers in many ways too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post
...Hopes, "my tone" is freedom. The desire to raise and educate my children as I see fit without state oversight...I do not agree with the mentality, "Guilty until proven innocent," but I can assure you that my children will not end up on welfare.
Society has a vested interest in making sure your children can pass competency tests along the way. We can't take your word your children won't be on welfare due to lack of adequate education. As a result, your assurances are meaningless unless you allow your children to be tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeMomNH View Post
...Yes, this all being said, you affirm what I knew and indicated in my OP: We (middle-class, freedom-loving, tax-paying citizens) are not a fit for Vermont. It seems that only certain political, wealthy types are truly welcome. (The poorest need not apply either via the welfare comment.) Thanks for saying it out loud.
There are plenty of political wealthy types who homeschool their children. Even they could incompetently homeschool their children to the point they are incapable of holding down jobs.
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