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Old 01-19-2015, 05:59 AM
 
30 posts, read 34,304 times
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Originally Posted by Oriz View Post
Baloney. My wife has several auto immune diseases and she caused none of them to herself. There are many like her and many with other kinds of illnesses. People deserve to be treated for their illness without it costing them an arm and a leg, even if the rest of us have to pitch in for that. And most Vermonters have already said they are willing to pay more in taxes in order for their neighbors to be able to get affordable and accessible health care. Even the libertarian in me has no problem with that one. Maybe I'm biased cause of my wife but I don't think so.

I would call baloney on much of this. You obviously read what you want and ignore the rest. Nobody here said it was ALL about choices. Indeed, those who discussed personal responsibility also included the recognition that some things are beyond the person's control. It's not a zero-sum game and the world isn't as black and white as you tend to portray it. That said, costs are high due to a variety of factors, some of which involve BAD choices by individuals thereby dramatically increasing the costs for everyone. I don't know how much of a libertarian you are when you clearly don't recognize personal responsibility and individualism as vital foundational aspects of our freedoms. If you don't recognize that American culture has become so unhealthy due to the dietary and personal habits of individuals that it's driving up our healthcare costs--and that it needs to be talked about and changed----then I would see you more as a collectivist than a libertarian. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. I don't see anything remotely resembling libertarianism in your thoughts. Personal responsibility and lifestyles need to be part of any legitimate conversation about healthcare.

Last edited by BS Walks; 01-19-2015 at 07:06 AM..
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:36 AM
 
221 posts, read 266,741 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by BS Walks View Post
I would call baloney on much of this. You obviously read what you want and ignore the rest. Nobody here said it was ALL about choices. Indeed, those who discussed personal responsibility also included the recognition that some things are beyond the person's control. It's not a zero-sum game and the world isn't as black and white as you tend to portray it. That said, costs are high due to a variety of factors, some of which involve BAD choices by individuals thereby dramatically increasing the costs for everyone. I don't know how much of a libertarian you are when you clearly don't recognize personal responsibility and individualism as vital foundational aspects of our freedoms. If you don't recognize that American culture has become so unhealthy due to the dietary and personal habits of individuals that it's driving up our healthcare costs--and that it needs to be talked about and changed----then I would see you more as a collectivist than a libertarian. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. I don't see anything remotely resembling libertarianism in your thoughts. Personal responsibility and lifestyles need to be part of any legitimate conversation about healthcare.
lol...well, when you only read my thoughts about one topic you can't really say I'm a collectivist. I don't fit in just one mold 100% and I think people who do probably just can't think for themselves cause there's no way somebody should share all the same opinions as everyone else in their "group" or party so I try to stay away from labels but as far as what I'm closest to I do always say I am about 80% libertarian, the other %20? Well I don't agree with everything.

Health care is one of those. I draw the line where it can affect a person directly and physically. Well you could argue that somebody losing their job can affect them so why am I against government intervention in the economy? Well that isn't something that's directly affecting everyone the same way. However someone not having access to health care can directly screw up their life and well being completely and well that is exactly what government is for by definition - to defend us and protect us and our well being. Even a small government should offer at least that.

So what exactly would you suggest? To prohibit people from eating mcdonalds? To ban smokes? Trust me I would probably be much happier than you about smoking being outlawed. I think it is a horrible disease, much the same as alcoholism and drug abuse. Unfortunately I don't think that's ever going to happen to due the tax revenue. Then again you could also argue that the tax revenue offsets the health care costs it creates. The bottom line is I think whether there should be some responsibility on the people that made the wrong choices such as smoking, or eating unhealthy, everybody still deserves to be able to take care of themselves without it costing them an arm and a leg.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:05 AM
 
221 posts, read 266,741 times
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I do want to stress though that I am not necessarily opposed to certain individuals paying higher premiums due to circumstances such as being smokers etc. Obesity is a little tricky due to some of it not being a result of excessive or unhealthy food consumption but rather a medical condition.
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Old 01-21-2015, 04:20 PM
 
30 posts, read 34,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriz View Post
I do want to stress though that I am not necessarily opposed to certain individuals paying higher premiums due to circumstances such as being smokers etc. Obesity is a little tricky due to some of it not being a result of excessive or unhealthy food consumption but rather a medical condition.

The key is to incentivize smart decision making and discourage those who continually make bad choices. While generally responsible people can run into circumstances in their lives that require them to seek the assistance of the state, the reality is that it's the same group of irresponsible people who are sucking the life out of most of the resources of all kinds. That needs to change. Continuing to throw unconditional money at these problems doesn't work and punishes those of us who are responsible. Other than disabled people and elderly people on low incomes people who don't have health plans need to get a job that gets them a health plan. If they can't get that job in Vermont then they need to MOVE to a place where they can get the job. We all do what we have to do. I'm tired of entitled people who suck dry our resources because they just don't FEEL like doing what they need to do or because they want to keep cranking children out that they cannot afford to raise. I've made a lot of sacrifices to have a job with a health plan including going to school as an adult, getting training when I can, moving to where jobs are, taking jobs I really don't want etc. and so do most people. There's no excuse to allow a core group of people to punish the rest. Health care costs us so much because of a lot of controllable reasons including frivolous lawsuits, abuse of emergency rooms for routine care, and the above-referenced people who suck dry the systems and cause higher costs for everyone else. Providing free healthcare to people who are here illegally doesn't help either! Working people should not bear this burden. Money doesn't grow on trees.
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Old 01-21-2015, 05:05 PM
 
46 posts, read 46,013 times
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Default Should Employees Be Required to Cover?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS Walks View Post
The key is to incentivize smart decision making and discourage those who continually make bad choices. While generally responsible people can run into circumstances in their lives that require them to seek the assistance of the state, the reality is that it's the same group of irresponsible people who are sucking the life out of most of the resources of all kinds. That needs to change. Continuing to throw unconditional money at these problems doesn't work and punishes those of us who are responsible. Other than disabled people and elderly people on low incomes people who don't have health plans need to get a job that gets them a health plan. If they can't get that job in Vermont then they need to MOVE to a place where they can get the job. We all do what we have to do. I'm tired of entitled people who suck dry our resources because they just don't FEEL like doing what they need to do or because they want to keep cranking children out that they cannot afford to raise. I've made a lot of sacrifices to have a job with a health plan including going to school as an adult, getting training when I can, moving to where jobs are, taking jobs I really don't want etc. and so do most people. There's no excuse to allow a core group of people to punish the rest. Health care costs us so much because of a lot of controllable reasons including frivolous lawsuits, abuse of emergency rooms for routine care, and the above-referenced people who suck dry the systems and cause higher costs for everyone else. Providing free healthcare to people who are here illegally doesn't help either! Working people should not bear this burden. Money doesn't grow on trees.
I can't imagine where you got this "punish" notion, but I quickly found this chart about insurance coverage availability through employment. This doesn't tell us the size of the firms. Even then, there's coverage and then there's coverage--like huge deductables or copays that benefit no one but the insurance companies or hospitals, I guess. I've seen this issue from many sides in terms of personal experience, but do you have any authoritative data to support your position?

Percent of Private Sector Establishments That Offer Health Insurance to Employees | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:22 PM
 
221 posts, read 266,741 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by BS Walks View Post
If they can't get that job in Vermont then they need to MOVE to a place where they can get the job.
Completely disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS Walks View Post
Providing free healthcare to people who are here illegally doesn't help either! .
Completely agree.
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:25 AM
 
30 posts, read 34,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily6271 View Post
I can't imagine where you got this "punish" notion, but I quickly found this chart about insurance coverage availability through employment. This doesn't tell us the size of the firms. Even then, there's coverage and then there's coverage--like huge deductables or copays that benefit no one but the insurance companies or hospitals, I guess. I've seen this issue from many sides in terms of personal experience, but do you have any authoritative data to support your position?

Percent of Private Sector Establishments That Offer Health Insurance to Employees | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

You can't imagine where I get this "punish" notion? Well, let's see. If you have working people paying for the lives of people who don't work, I'd say that constitutes penalizing people who live responsibly by driving the costs up on everything. I don't know about you, but I've been working full time since the 80's and I've never had a job that didn't have healthcare options available for me to purchase. Of course, some jobs have never offered health insurance because they aren't considered jobs that people would use to establish either a career path or jobs that are meant to be held over the long run. At some point, people need to develop skills or education to work themselves into better jobs that come with better pay and better benefits. Flipping burgers isn't a job that was ever intended to offer a living wage or a benefits package. It's for people in transition into something better.

Is your position that people shouldn't have to pay any portion of their own healthcare? And what makes you think insurance companies are entitled to no benefit? Do you think goods and services should be free? I'm not opposed to state laws aimed at requiring certain employers to offer healthcare options for their employees to purchase. I am opposed to discouraging people from bettering their own positions in life by handing things over without strings, or at substantial costs to the people who are working. All one has to do is look at our federal and state budgets and debts to see how entitlement costs are killing us. Who do you think is paying for all that? You demonize insurance companies and I'm certainly no apologist for them, but you act as if they are not entitled to reap any profits from their business and that medical practitioners should not be compensated. Do you think we should continue to encourage people to not work and have kid after kid that they cannot afford? Does common sense come into play in any of your positions? Personal responsibility? Yes, those who don't act responsibly, time after time, penalize those of us who do. If you can't understand that, I don't know how to help you.

Last edited by BS Walks; 01-22-2015 at 05:45 AM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:28 AM
 
30 posts, read 34,304 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriz View Post
Completely disagree.



You're free to disagree but we aren't born with an unalienable right to a job in any geographic area we feel like living. If I'm living in an area where I can't get a job, I need to get off my rear end and begin a job search in places where I can obtain employment. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own lives and livelihood. And many of us are doing just that. And we are not responsible for paying for you to be able to do whatever you feel like doing.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:00 AM
 
221 posts, read 266,741 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by BS Walks View Post
You're free to disagree but we aren't born with an unalienable right to a job in any geographic area we feel like living. If I'm living in an area where I can't get a job, I need to get off my rear end and begin a job search in places where I can obtain employment. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own lives and livelihood. And many of us are doing just that. And we are not responsible for paying for you to be able to do whatever you feel like doing.
You have obviously never had the experiences some people have, and I hope you never do, although it might make you see things a little more realistically and less idealistically. People born in a certain place should just uproot their family cause they can't find a job that will pay for their health care? Really? What about people with pre conditions? What about jobs that will provide health care but are borderline abusive to you? You should stick around just for that?

No, it is our duty as human beings to help our fellow human beings out until they can get back up on their feet. I am not talking about people abusing the system - those should be caught and prosecuted. I'm talking about genuine hard working people that can fall on hard times for a couple of years and need our help. We should give it to them.
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Old 01-22-2015, 12:09 PM
 
150 posts, read 177,775 times
Reputation: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriz View Post
You have obviously never had the experiences some people have, and I hope you never do, although it might make you see things a little more realistically and less idealistically. People born in a certain place should just uproot their family cause they can't find a job that will pay for their health care? Really? What about people with pre conditions? What about jobs that will provide health care but are borderline abusive to you? You should stick around just for that?

No, it is our duty as human beings to help our fellow human beings out until they can get back up on their feet. I am not talking about people abusing the system - those should be caught and prosecuted. I'm talking about genuine hard working people that can fall on hard times for a couple of years and need our help. We should give it to them.
Ultimately, the solution to the problem regarding an individual's right to live how and where he chooses v the state's obligation to help those in need (whether permanently or for a short time) is, at best, murky and based on shaky boundaries. Why, for example, should we not tax soda and other sugary soft drinks (as is now proposed in the VT legislature) if we know that such drinks, if taken regularly and in excess, lead to poor health, and use that tax to fund, in part, the health care thus required? Makes sense to me, but I drink soda very rarely. But how can such a tax be proposed when tax payers are already funding the distribution--for free, no less--of such drinks to those in need of assistance in obtaining food. That's right, VTers on 3Squares (aka food stamps) can get all the Mt Dew, Pepsi and Coke (none of which have the properties most people would associate with "food") they want. To add to this bit of irony, my gym membership is taxed. We can, and should, look to our elected officials to promote the health and well being of the entire community, via, in part, by levying taxes on products that lead to unhealthy, thus costly, behaviors and outcomes, but only in part. Some part of that, we need to do ourselves, individually. How to balance this?
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