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Old 02-11-2015, 12:41 PM
 
809 posts, read 680,226 times
Reputation: 1333

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Scoobydew:

1. False; it's contracted.
2. Why are the US health care expenditures per person almost double those of the most expensive of the government-controlled health care system (Norway), while giving results that rank 36th among nations? Entitlement has nothing to do with it.
3. For healthy Americans of any age, "keeping your plan" with a for-profit insurance company was not a better alternative than Obamacare, since employment on average these days is only 3 years, causing a loss of insurance and the risk of failing to have coverage provided by the next employer.
4. Your statement is belied by the fact that those people happen to be the people who could afford to quit now that Obamacare for their spouse covered the household.
5. I couldn't find a source for your CBO claim, although it could have been made in 2009.
6. See #4.
7. Neither MassCare nor Obamacare is single payer. Both of them prop up for-profit insurers. Single-payer in Vermont would increase the state budget by $2 billion, but would save Vermonters $2.5 billion. Five studies either report or accede to this.
8. See #2.
9. Take Social Security out of the equation (it is a separately funded program), and suddenly some USN&WR writer has egg on his face. In addition, why are "entitlements" for people horrid, while the same for mega-corporations not?

Now, what would you like for health care insurance for yourself?
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
238 posts, read 254,879 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Scoobydew:

1. False; it's contracted.
2. Why are the US health care expenditures per person almost double those of the most expensive of the government-controlled health care system (Norway), while giving results that rank 36th among nations? Entitlement has nothing to do with it.
3. For healthy Americans of any age, "keeping your plan" with a for-profit insurance company was not a better alternative than Obamacare, since employment on average these days is only 3 years, causing a loss of insurance and the risk of failing to have coverage provided by the next employer.
4. Your statement is belied by the fact that those people happen to be the people who could afford to quit now that Obamacare for their spouse covered the household.
5. I couldn't find a source for your CBO claim, although it could have been made in 2009.
6. See #4.
7. Neither MassCare nor Obamacare is single payer. Both of them prop up for-profit insurers. Single-payer in Vermont would increase the state budget by $2 billion, but would save Vermonters $2.5 billion. Five studies either report or accede to this.
8. See #2.
9. Take Social Security out of the equation (it is a separately funded program), and suddenly some USN&WR writer has egg on his face. In addition, why are "entitlements" for people horrid, while the same for mega-corporations not?

Now, what would you like for health care insurance for yourself?
You seem obsessed with this thread and in flippantly responding to everyone who dares to disagree with the opinions YOU hold. So in the interest of maintaining civility on MY end, this will be my only response to you. This is a conversation board which means people discuss and converse. If you want to refute facts I've posted, feel free. Try to do it in a respectful way......if you're capable. This entire issue has nuances that are open to interpretation based on different analyses. And there are some facts which are irrefutable. You come off as someone who just HAS to be right.....at ALL costs. I find this bizarre.

All the CBO data is available to you. Whether social security is separately funded or not doesn't change the overall numbers and it doesn't change the 18 percent GDP spent on healthcare. Whether Mass is single payer or not, doesn't change the overall budget numbers. The reason healthcare is so expensive is a VERY long and complex conversation that I don't think you'd be interested in given your highly combative stance toward this subject. You may want to check out the research Dartmouth University has done on this topic. We most certainly need to contain costs, but it's not done by putting into the hands of the US Government and anyone who believes this, clearly doesn't know anything about how the US Government operates nor anything about the principles upon which the Government is founded. The Federal government has a role in shaping the conditions which cause the high costs. It certainly should not have a role AT ALL in the actual healthcare end of the issue.

When you begin your response with a flat out "False" you should make sure you're correct because it just makes you look foolish: U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time . This is the reason why I'm more interested in finding cost-effective policy solutions. And again, I think Vermont should be able to do whatever Vermont likes, as long as Vermont pays for it.

Last edited by scoobydew; 02-12-2015 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:58 PM
 
809 posts, read 680,226 times
Reputation: 1333
Start with thisNational Debt For Beginners : NPR.

Last edited by vter; 02-13-2015 at 08:48 AM..
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
238 posts, read 254,879 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Start with thisNational Debt For Beginners : NPR. Let's talk more when you understand the nature of government debt.

I posted a fact about the debt and you flatly responded "false it's contracted." When I post a link that shows that the fact is accurate, and the debt is growing as I stated, you respond by posting a link to an article while insulting my intelligence?

Try to consider that people can look at the same facts and reach different conclusions based on different perspectives and different analysis. Insulting people with whom you disagree doesn't make your case stronger.

Last edited by scoobydew; 02-13-2015 at 06:16 AM..
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Old 02-13-2015, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Vermont
3,333 posts, read 8,793,612 times
Reputation: 2031
This thread is starting to trend off topic and is turning into a bicker fest.
Please keep this on the topic of Vermont.
Also please be civil and polite in your debates.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:50 AM
 
150 posts, read 177,906 times
Reputation: 415
To cgregor: You've posted this; (7. Neither MassCare nor Obamacare is single payer. Both of them prop up for-profit insurers. Single-payer in Vermont would increase the state budget by $2 billion, but would save Vermonters $2.5 billion. Five studies either report or accede to this. many, many times on this board. It is objectively false, You should stop writing this as evidence that single payer is economically viable for VT.
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:26 PM
 
809 posts, read 680,226 times
Reputation: 1333
Sovertennis, please read the Hsiao report for starts.

Last edited by vter; 02-14-2015 at 06:00 AM..
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:16 AM
 
150 posts, read 177,906 times
Reputation: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgregor View Post
Sovertennis, please read the Hsiao report for starts.
The Hsaio Report was only slightly more reality-based than the Wizard of Oz. The Shumlin Admin, which commissioned the report, backtracked from its findings within months. Among other fantasies, the report said the purported $500 mill in savings would come from the State of VT capturing all people on ERISA plans as well as those on Medicare. Both of these would have required somewhere between 15-20 Federal waivers, and were non-starters.

I work in healthcare, Chuck, so I've read all the reports you've mentioned in your previous posts. I'd suggest you re-read them prior to promoting their findings as proof that the very small and economically poor State of VT could in any way support a single payer plan. Ultimately though, the only salient report in this whole sad and wasteful odyssey that Gov Shumlin put us through is the one his administration issue in December, 2014.
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:32 PM
 
809 posts, read 680,226 times
Reputation: 1333
Depends on which sector of health care you work in, Sovertennis. What did Sinclair Lewis say? "You can't make a man understand when his paycheck depends on not understanding." I used to work in health care, too-- with people who were bankrupted by the costs.

For some reason there are 36 other countries, at least 16 of them poorer and four of them smaller than Vermont, who make affordable health care work-- and which avoid the rate hikes crippling our system(s).

We Americans like to believe we're Number One in everything good. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of looking backward, when we really were. At this time, we are NOT Number One in just about anything, and it's time to start working to be Number One in something besides military spending. I'm for looking forward and making the changes needed to get us back to where we were.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:29 AM
 
809 posts, read 680,226 times
Reputation: 1333
The Vermont Workers Center has just released its funding proposal for universal health care in Vermont: RELEASE: Over 100 economists call on Vermont to move forward with universal health care; new financing plan shows a way | Vermont Workers' Center. Let's see what happens.
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