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Old 02-24-2015, 05:53 AM
 
495 posts, read 474,608 times
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Looking back at the documentary from the year 1775 of the Green Mountain Boys under Ethan Allen's command and the army of Benedict Arnold,

These men were both on a quest for Individual self-gratifying Rebel attacks. The British fort they took over in seconds was not so much a victory at all...it was that the British were taken by surprise that they were in a state of war with the colonies...the colonists chose the war and then had to fight the war they brought on. That's the true story of the Revolutionary War. After this, a lot of luck kept America strong....and a lot of manifest destiny and a lot of breaching of treaties with native tribes all the way to the Pacific. After this was achieved, it was Spanish-American wars and wars over islands in the oceans.
After this was achieved, US involvement in the world wars.

But in the beginning, it was the Greed of Benefict Arnold and Ethan Allen I think.

As we know in fact, Benefict Arnold abandoned the American forces and later joined the other side.

North of you is the very peaceful neighbor Quebec, whose people were perfectly fine off as loyalists to Britain (even allowed the French to maintain their language and culture), and ultimately let Canada the autonomy in 1867 to become an indepedent country of Canada.
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Old 02-24-2015, 06:18 AM
 
221 posts, read 266,691 times
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I'm not a native vermonter, was not even born in the US...But regardless of each individual's personal reasons for the war, I think that overall it was definitely necessary. Do you really want some more taxation without representation? Seems like we're moving towards more and more of that again even today. Wouldn't be surprised at this rate if there is another revolution a couple centuries down the line.

Also yes, it was luck, but also the help of France, and really there are many reasons why it worked so it is difficult to pin point just one or two.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,867 posts, read 2,991,000 times
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Boy, this sounds like the "Revisionist History of America Since the Revolutionary War". So we should have remained a colony of England? I don't know where you hail from, I am a native northern New Englander and one thing about us is that we are VERY independent. It seems as though we are moving in the direction these days of being taxed into the poorhouse once again and Vermont has given indications of wanting to secede, albeit maybe half-heartedly. Then you ramble on about "Manifest Destiny", World Wars and breaching of treaties with the Indians (of which I am remotely part). Sounds like you are more asking "Is America an evil, greedy country and do Vermonters think so"...?
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:02 AM
 
809 posts, read 679,570 times
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The American colonists were lucky enough to have the elbow room to experiment with government other than monarchy. If the Revolution hadn't happened, the "divine right of kings" would probably have continued until Bismarck realized he had to co-opt the German working class with education, sanitation and good working conditions-- and even then he might not have done so without the unrest caused by the American and French revolutions. Under continued British rule, we would have come up with a parliamentary system like the other colonies.

Today, the British monarch is really no more than one of the UK's wealthiest landladies, with top-drawer social and political connections.

Of course, American democracy, thanks to Citizens United, is faced with corporate "representation without taxation," but I don't think we're going to muster the ability to overthrow that.
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,917 posts, read 54,257,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthebean View Post
Looking back at the documentary from the year 1775 of the Green Mountain Boys under Ethan Allen's command and the army of Benedict Arnold,

These men were both on a quest for Individual self-gratifying Rebel attacks. The British fort they took over in seconds was not so much a victory at all...it was that the British were taken by surprise that they were in a state of war with the colonies...the colonists chose the war and then had to fight the war they brought on. That's the true story of the Revolutionary War. After this, a lot of luck kept America strong....and a lot of manifest destiny and a lot of breaching of treaties with native tribes all the way to the Pacific. After this was achieved, it was Spanish-American wars and wars over islands in the oceans.
After this was achieved, US involvement in the world wars.

But in the beginning, it was the Greed of Benefict Arnold and Ethan Allen I think.

As we know in fact, Benefict Arnold abandoned the American forces and later joined the other side.

North of you is the very peaceful neighbor Quebec, whose people were perfectly fine off as loyalists to Britain (even allowed the French to maintain their language and culture), and ultimately let Canada the autonomy in 1867 to become an indepedent country of Canada.
I have read your post twice and am not sure what your point is. "Do most Vermonters today..." do you mean native Vermonters or people residing in the state? "Feel the American Revolution was necessary" - most Vermonters today only have a vague understanding of the times, and "feel" whatever they were taught or what their family handed down. What does all that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Your statements betray your lack of knowledge of the greater scope of historical events of the time.

Quebec was by no means "peaceful," as witnessed by the various wars preceding the U.S. revolution. You might want to do a quick look-up of the Acadian migration to catch England's attitude to Francophiles. The Allens were no more or less greedy than the other players of the time. What they did was take a no-man's land, stake claim to it at personal risk and actually move to the area and attempt to defend the claim. There were a few possible outcomes for Vermont, and the Allens hedged bets quite well.

While the U.S. revolutionary war was officially won, it wasn't until the conclusion of the War of 1812 that the matters were settled with England, and it wasn't until the conclusion of the war between the North and South that the conflicts between confederation of states and federalism were sorted.

The rise of power of the United States was a complicated matter, with a few major factors.

First, it was isolated from easy land attack of critical areas. Poland, Germany, and European groups were able to use land battles. Short of the Alps, invasion was straightforward. The early U.S. had a buffer of an ocean that commonly took weeks to cross, and one that could not easily be crossed by air power until late in WWII.

Second, the U.S. had and has MASSIVE natural resources. Everything needed for early warfare was available in abundance. Even today, aside from a few rare elements, almost every resource needed is contained within its borders.

Third, the U.S. used economic dominance in ways the earlier colonial powers had not.

I can easily think of many other factors, but the point is that you need to go back to hitting the books.
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:56 PM
 
809 posts, read 679,570 times
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Well said, Harry Chickpea!
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:36 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,969 posts, read 22,288,649 times
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Taking the fort was a significant victory because of what they got from the fort: weapons that proved vital to the fight for independence.

The Green Mountain Boys were resisting what was essentially a feudal society in NY. And given the current direction NY is headed on issues of freedom I'm very glad they fought NY's control.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:28 PM
 
7,608 posts, read 9,465,582 times
Reputation: 8976
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Taking the fort was a significant victory because of what they got from the fort: weapons that proved vital to the fight for independence.

The Green Mountain Boys were resisting what was essentially a feudal society in NY. And given the current direction NY is headed on issues of freedom I'm very glad they fought NY's control.
Yeah, Bloomberg's attempt to restrict soda sizes was a real crimp in everyone's style...sure.

This from a guy who was afraid to walk the streets of little ol' Rutland without arming himself..
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:18 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,969 posts, read 22,288,649 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Yeah, Bloomberg's attempt to restrict soda sizes was a real crimp in everyone's style...sure.

This from a guy who was afraid to walk the streets of little ol' Rutland without arming himself..
I had in mind the NY "SAFE" act and other gun control laws in NY, building codes that are in the process of outlawing the use of rough cut lumber/lumber from small sawmills (i.e., if not stamped by a grader you won't be able to built anything with it except furniture, so a person couldn't build their own home out f their own lumber sawn from their own trees), and other laws generally aimed at micromanaging people's lives and creating a police state.

I am armed almost everywhere. I believe in being self-reliant and prepared for anything that might pop up. This isn't MA.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:12 PM
 
809 posts, read 679,570 times
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MassVt, some people just enjoy pretending there's a threat everywhere they look. It makes them feel good. It's only when their four-year-old shoots them in the head in Wal-Mart that the fun ends. Let them be.
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