Why Do People Leave Vermont? (Burlington, South Burlington: houses, rent, vacation)

[68vette]

Originally Posted by flu189

I agree winter has its unique special nature and I too have a bit Alaska experience, 21.5 years worth to be exact with every single winter spent working outdoors. I think that quite a bit of disenchantment with winter as expressed by some here in Vt comes from having to cope with the costs and hassles on a day-to-day basis, namely the ever increasing costs to heat our homes (VPR had a story that oil is now up to $3.98 in some parts of Vt) and the effects of commuting. I work with some folks who commute from 40 to 70 miles one-way and it does get a bit old in the winter. I try to get out and snowshoe/x-ctry ski as much as possible, but to be honest I have to work more and more just to pay the bills and when overtime opportunity presents itself I can't justify giving it up. Then of course for some winter presents difficulties as we age despite an appreciation for the season. So in summary, I don't think it's so much a dislike for winter and lack of desire to get out and partake in activities as much as it is the lack of opportunity to have both the time and resources to be able enjoy winter more. I know if I end up moving to Virginia I will not get rid of my skis and snowshoes as in both western Va and W Va there is plenty of opportunity to get out and enjoy the mountains.

I agree with flu. Winter can be an enjoyable season if you find things to do, and I love to do many winter activities. My problem is similar. Winter is such an inconvenience when I have to work as much as I do and drive as much as I have to. If I could have as much time to do the things I like and have a large enough bank account to survive then winter wouldn't be such an inconvenience for me.

[ian_m]

I think financial difficulties are universal. Our country is about to dive into recession. Places like Las Vegas, Riverside, and Orlando,etc. have taken huge economic hits with the current housing slump. Cities like Detroit, Rochester, Syracuse, or Pittsburgh have taken huge economic hits from vanishing manufacturing jobs. Really, the economy in New England is doing very well. Burlington, VT is thriving. I think blaming the slow national economy on Vermont -or high taxes- is unfair. The one large metro area in the Northeast that is outperforming New England is heavily taxed New York City. Vermont has a population of about 650,000. New York Metro region is somewhere around 20,000,000.
Life in vermont is generally about simple pleasures, a connection to nature, and a resistance to popular culture and urbanization. Everyone in this country's middle class is overworked and feeling financial strain. Vermont, however, offers more to life than, say, the drudgery one might encounter while living in a Richmond, VA suburb. The only reason i have ever moved from Vermont (twice) was to move to Alaska. I am back in Vermont now and love it. I'm still waiting for winter.......I hear complaints about weather, but I dont quite understand them. Is it really that bad? By the way, it is easy to find high paying jobs in Alaska....$80,000 or more a year is fairly average in some industries.
However, you will have to contend with arctic weather that makes vermont seem balmy and warm, a housing market that is sky high, and grocery prices that could double your local Hannaford's. Basically, no place is perfect.....but Vermont is among the nicest places I have seen in the United States.

[arel]

Originally Posted by ian_m

I think financial difficulties are universal. Our country is about to dive into recession. Places like Las Vegas, Riverside, and Orlando,etc. have taken huge economic hits with the current housing slump. Cities like Detroit, Rochester, Syracuse, or Pittsburgh have taken huge economic hits from vanishing manufacturing jobs. Really, the economy in New England is doing very well. Burlington, VT is thriving. I think blaming the slow national economy on Vermont -or high taxes- is unfair. The one large metro area in the Northeast that is outperforming New England is heavily taxed New York City. Vermont has a population of about 650,000. New York Metro region is somewhere around 20,000,000.
Life in vermont is generally about simple pleasures, a connection to nature, and a resistance to popular culture and urbanization. Everyone in this country's middle class is overworked and feeling financial strain. Vermont, however, offers more to life than, say, the drudgery one might encounter while living in a Richmond, VA suburb. The only reason i have ever moved from Vermont (twice) was to move to Alaska. I am back in Vermont now and love it. I'm still waiting for winter.......I hear complaints about weather, but I dont quite understand them. Is it really that bad? By the way, it is easy to find high paying jobs in Alaska....$80,000 or more a year is fairly average in some industries.
However, you will have to contend with arctic weather that makes vermont seem balmy and warm, a housing market that is sky high, and grocery prices that could double your local Hannaford's. Basically, no place is perfect.....but Vermont is among the nicest places I have seen in the United States.

Love it. Great post!

[HHurley78]

Originally Posted by myItalianlovesSnow

When did you buy your home in Oklahoma for $32,000?? Because I know if you paid that now it would almost be impossible to live in until you fixed it unless you got a good deal on something foreclosed. Oklahoma's wages are awful....Drive 61 miles for $9.00. WOW...what a waste if you ask me. Even with degrees or experience(which I have a lot in certain fields) you get paid nothing. I am interested in cost of food, school lunches, school supplies etc etc versus everything else. Not sure where you lived in Oklahoma but things are growing rapidly taxes keep rising because they are building new things...etc etc...and housing is going through the roof. Unless you want a double-wide on some land, which I am not knocking by no means but those are the more affordable things that you might be talking about...Not houses...just curious...

I love Oklahoma don't get me wrong but it's not an easy place to live either...it's hard to make a living here...

We purchased our house in Oklahoma City(South Broadway Place, off of 59th and I think Sunnylane?) near the moore area in 1998. Admittedly this was not a great school district, but we had no children at the time. We purchased our home as an investment rather than paying rent. I was 20, my husband was 23.Our house was 3 bedrooms, one bath and had hardwood floors throughout. We did some cosmetics, but it was very liveable when we purchased it. We had a nice sized yard which had a peach and a pecan tree(very nice). At that time in OK we were making a combined income of approx. 35,000. When my son was born I stopped working and we were still able to afford our house and a newer vehicle. Not a lot of spending money but it was worth it to stay home with my son. Ok is far more affordable than VT.

[LowboyTZ]

We've been in Vermont since 1991. Great place to raise our kids, glad we did. Both kids have a good, clean character about them, and we're fortunate for that. Of course, it doesn't happen by complete accident, either...we had a little to do with that as parents who PAY ATTENTION.

My son is now attending a tech school in Ct. (he's 18,) and finds he hates Ct., but revealed recently he doesn't want to stay in Vermont, due to the low paying career opportunities here. That was nice to hear, because it gave my wife and I the green light to explore other options to live elsewhere.

We will miss the beauty, the wildlife, and a lot of other things. We will NOT miss the 130" snowfalls we get every year, the constant snowplowing I do in addition to all my other work, the 12 mile drive to get milk, bread, etc., the salt that ruins our vehicles, and many other things such as low wages and far and few between job opportunities around Vt. Property taxes on the rise, no services in return for them. Climate is an issue as well. You have a very short growing season in Vt., so a garden becomes a chore unless you close yourself into a hothouse.

That's just our true, honest opinion. I moved up here 30 years too soon. If you're independently wealthy from a trust fund, old money, or can make a decent living without depending on the state or local economy, I'd say head right up there, if you like the natural beauty of the mountains, streams, and the general landscape in the Green Mountain State.

Hope I didn't sound negative...it was all from experience.

There's a lot of magnificent things here, if you can afford to live here.

[Grybas44]

Ian...At least the cities you mentioned have had manufacturing to lose. Besides IBM, there are no large companies with higher paying jobs, and no large companies can or want to come here. Vermont makes it nearly impossible for them to open or to thrive if they do open. I am trying to figure how Burlington is thriving. Give examples...please!

[flu189]

Originally Posted by Grybas44

Ian...At least the cities you mentioned have had manufacturing to lose. Besides IBM, there are no large companies with higher paying jobs, and no large companies can or want to come here. Vermont makes it nearly impossible for them to open or to thrive if they do open. I am trying to figure how Burlington is thriving. Give examples...please!

Speaking of IBM, Big Blue's 4th Qtr report really gave the markets a boost today and this just goes to show how important it is to stimulate and promote business activity. Since living here I have met two folks who retired from IBM and both agree that due to state policies and regulations IBM never expanded it's potential here. We in fact do need operations of larger scale which offer higher wages to provide for more prosperity as the small 10 to 40 employee operations just don't provide the ultimate revenue to satisfy the state's spending appetite. Larger businesses can fit in well and be good neighbors for the community, but meaningful incentives have to be on the table, not just nickel and dime token gestures. At the rate we are going it is just a matter of time to the point where the state will experience back-to-back budget deficits and then the pressure will be enormous to curtail the special interest sacred cow expenditures. When this stage is reached it will be even harder to persuade new business to move here or for that matter to even retain what we currently have.

[casualobserver]

flu.......or anyone else who pays attention to details of the Vermont State government...........is there a book or website or anything that lays out the state economy and the operation of the state government (overall source and distribution of revenues, etc.) without having to pour through the state budget documents online?

Something like "Warren Buffet gives his view on how Vermont operates". i.e., I'm looking for the business case, not the "all things green, pristine and pure" notion of Vermont.

Thanks.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by casualobserver

Something like "Warren Buffet gives his view on how Vermont operates". i.e., I'm looking for the business case, not the "all things green, pristine and pure" notion of Vermont.

Plenty of research & reports from a libertarian viewpoint: Ethan Allen Institute

[flu189]

Some good links can be reached from the website vermonttiger.com which itself posts articles on a daily basis concerning Vt politics and economic issues. As already mentioned the Ethan Allen Institute also issued the report Off The Rails which you can read from their site and then check their references for further information. There are also various business and commerce reports which you google. Many of the state run sites concerning labor, economic, misc issues are available, but for some reason they don't appear to be updated very frequently with fresh data. Then of course to see what the state legislature is doing can be followed from their website where you can see what bills are proposed, debated, and how the various representatives actually vote. The state newspapers actually cover very little, and what they do cover as is common with most MSM, is of dubious factual basis.