[LowboyTZ]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

I would be disheartened, too! I'm actually horrified to think that adults are treating others like this -- and their fellow community members! What an example they're setting for their kids, who won't know any other way to behave. Very sad.



I imagine there are pockets like that everywhere. But not all of Vermont is like that! Granted I haven't lived in many places. I spent years in Peterborough, Rindge, and Keene, NH, and in Rutland, VT. And I have not had that experience. But Rutland is not a tiny town. It's easy enough to find people who one clicks with, rather than stewing in a clique.

That's just the dilemma; I'm also an extrovert, and would love more than anything to be more involved with some local activities, such as volunteering as a groomer operator in the local snowmobile club. Unfortunately, they are one of those "cliques" that are ruining the small town closeness to begin with. They have their "pets" so to speak, that get the opportunity to groom trails and other projects. They aren't open to a neighbor like me doing it, only the chosen few from 120 miles away for some reason.You just have to shake your head at the whole rediculous situation.

It's really a shame. Our best friends in this town that lived 3 miles away from us moved 20 miles away due to the small town politics 2 years ago. Now there's really nobody that we associate with close by that we would trust to watch our kids for a few hours so my wife and I could sneak away on an evening date or anything. We just deal with it. Can't change it.

It's always greener on the other side, they say. That's got a lot of truth to it.

[68vette]

Originally Posted by LowboyTZ

That's just the dilemma; I'm also an extrovert, and would love more than anything to be more involved with some local activities, such as volunteering as a groomer operator in the local snowmobile club. Unfortunately, they are one of those "cliques" that are ruining the small town closeness to begin with. They have their "pets" so to speak, that get the opportunity to groom trails and other projects. They aren't open to a neighbor like me doing it, only the chosen few from 120 miles away for some reason.You just have to shake your head at the whole rediculous situation.

It's really a shame. Our best friends in this town that lived 3 miles away from us moved 20 miles away due to the small town politics 2 years ago. Now there's really nobody that we associate with close by that we would trust to watch our kids for a few hours so my wife and I could sneak away on an evening date or anything. We just deal with it. Can't change it.

It's always greener on the other side, they say. That's got a lot of truth to it.

I know what you are talking about. I lived in a small town when I first moved to Vermont. In almost ten years I could count on one hand the number of people who I could call a friend. I worked in Burlington while living there and that is what kept me in Vermont(the friends I made there). I was never part of the town gossip(that I know of), but I wasn't fully accepted. People would say "hi" or "how are you", but it never went much past a casual friendship. I'm sure many places are different(and possibly the same), but my saving grace was a larger area like Burlington where it was much easier to find people with common interests. I look back on those years now and wonder how I ever survived that long, outside of driving an hour to Burlington to see friends.

[VermontLodging]

Hello everyone... we came to southern vermont (near manchester and rutland) in 1999... our 3 kids went thru their teen years here and at this point as young adults will most likely stay here a while... we came here and bought a business property, also our home... in the 8 years since, it was all downhill. Income was very low to expenses, and since much business is seasonal and weather dependent, it got worse and worse. Even with having to get outside jobs besides just running this business, we went into further debt to the tune of 125,000. This was just to keep up with rising costs. Mortgage (adjustable biz loan type) has doubled, fuel oil has gone from under a dollar a gallon to over 3 dollars a gallon, so it is FOUR times what it was originally, and we use 4 to 5 THOUSAND gallons a year... that is whether we have any income here or not, you have to heat the place and keep your pipes from freezing! Electric we have managed to keep affordable with energy saving bulbs and conserving as much as possible... but property taxes have doubled as well as other utility and service costs increased. the state and federal govt has changed rules about businesses, fees, requirements, water laws, septic laws, and fire laws, insurance requirements and costs, all these things have sucked us dry. We could barely keep up on maintainence issues and will go further into debt to take care of those items this spring. Selling may be an answer, but of course the market is slow for that, especially for properties that are business types dependent on the market factors which have been very bad over the years in vermont... due to high costs less folks travel, or travel less often... and locals have less money to spend on eating out or travel themselves... SO with income being half of what is was originally and costs being more than double what they were, we are 75% in pain financially. Even when we had a possible sale of the property, we were told we would also owe CAPITAL GAINS to the irs as well as tax on the sale to the state... to the tune of 25% or more of the sale price!!! Even though debts would leave us penniless after the sale, they think we should still give them all a cut. And of course many of the financial shorts were put on credit cards, which as we all know have doubled rates and minimum payment requirements making it IMPOSSIBLE to keep up at all. SO I have not ever had a chance to enjoy vermont or to experience all the things I thought we came here for. I spend all my days struggling to pay the daily bills and work work work. I do not see an end any time soon. Locally the pay scale is horrible... I do not know too many people making much more than 10 dollars an hour... most folks get some kind of help, for daycare, or food stamps or medical... many are on disability , most have 2 earners in a family I dont think you could make it with one working.... i know folks traveling 40 miles each way as there is not closer work for more than minimum wage... that is 4 gal of gas a day! 12 dollars in gas easy each day... 50 bucks right out of their lousy 400 a week before taxes... ??? BUT having lived on long island and in florida... it is the same story everywhere unless you have a good paying job and a lower priced place to live, it is a daily struggle... people cant do it anymore. Something has to give. SO anyway, I have converted my property a little at a time, and still working on it, into housing for locals, rather than tourist property... there is little housing options for folks who do not own a home here, in our area there are few apartment complexes and few rental homes... and very few affordable anything homes... so young couples, and single adults have few options. Even with that income, the place here is paying for itself but there is nothing left for the old debt load, it all goes to the current expenses... so my other half has had his perfect AAA credit go down the toilet... it was that or be homeless and hungry ourselves. Although things have sucked here, I cant say it is just because it is vermont. The economy and costs are horrible everywhere these days... no matter where you live you will give up one thing for another... you cant predict what will happen, we did our homework and all was affordable in year one but who knew over the next 3 or 4 years income would go down and expenses would double and then triple? Who knew the market would go down the tubes and folks cant sell now? I hate the cold now that I discovered i do not ski, and the cold hurts my body ... and now i know winter is 8 months long, the snow never ends, you cant shovel ice, so this makes me want to leave vermont also... but it is peacefull as compared to busy areas like many i visit and used to live in... but sometimes maybe too peacefull... my mind is going nuts doing the same things here over and over for 8 years there is not much entertainment nearby and it is lack of stimulation to be in the house night after night... most everything closes either at 5 or 6 or at latest 9 pm... I dont know, I dont like to complain, so I wont and I dont, but to do it over again, i wouldnt... if I have to work hard and be broke I would rather be where it is warm and you could walk somewhere at night and not be homebound for 8 months at a time... if there was more money coming in I would make some things happen and create something locally to improve social life for some of us but since most spare time is spent making ends meet, it wont be happening. I had the illusion that the easy going life in vermont would allow me time to do more of the things i loved... art, writing, sewing etc... but that was totally wrong... when i lived in NY and worked 2 jobs and raised a family somehow i had more free time to do those things... very strange. OH WELL hopefully soon my income will exceed my costs and i will be able to head south and recover from the stress i have been given in vermont, while waiting for the market to allow me to sell in the future,,, i dont hate vermont, it is the economy, the laws, the govt, stuff like that which has ruined it for me and many others here and everywhere. I do not have the answers. But I do not think I would buy property any time soon. A home rental or mobile home on rented land is better as if the going gets impossible, you can leave! For those considering vermont, unless you have a corporate connection somehow, the pay scale is low... but there is plenty of room for those going into biz, especially service biz's, skilled professions... you can set your own rates and create your own income. oh well that is my story right now.

[flu189]

Wow, VT Lodging that was a pretty powerful post which really summed up quite a bit of the realities and frustrations of the the current times we face. In fact it should be read into the record at the legislature to remind them to maybe actually focus on issues that really matter to the folks that represent the tax base here, but as my few years here have already confirmed their agenda and hearts are elsewhere. Good luck to you and the others who face the same dilemma each and everyday.

[GypsySoul22]

I am going to say the weather has to be a major factor, especially after this winter. Even my husband has been now muttering, "I'm moving to Arizona, I am moving where there isn't any more snow so I can go running properly..." He's sick of it!!

As for me, you know what I think. But some of my 'problems' are not weather related.

However...my new puppy doesn't like subzero temps too much so I am finding it hard to do all the walkies she needs on many layers of slick ice and towers of snow..

About friends/knowing people...get a dog...amazing how nice people have become now we got our puppy. The bus driver, a gruff but nice man, actually smiled at us yesterday as puppy and I saw my son off to school!! The lady who helped us find this apartment called me 'socially' to congratulate us on our puppy...I thought she had 'business' with us but NO she called just to talk!!

I got off the phone and said to hubby, "Wow, we've finally 'arrived.' He has no clue, being from England. I told him 'people don't really do this sort of thing' till you're accepted as 'one of us.'

New Englanders can be a crusty bunch...I've known that for years. One friend of my dad's moved from NYC to CT and it took years for them to be accepted socially.

Oh, and on the job front...I find it very annoying when you see the prices here and then the wages..No, I am sorry, but $10/hour is NOT good money...there is MONEY here...spend some and PAY people a fair wage. (I'm job hunting and I made $10/hr ten years ago...please...)

I will probably wind up getting a job in NH where the pay is slightly better.

[vter]

VermontLodging has found what a lot of other transplants have found....that living in Vermont is not the same as visiting. So many folks come here with rose colored glasses only to be disappointed. I read other forums on this website and see so many folks say, "move here, you'll love it".......while here we try and be honest. Not everyone can cut it here.
VermontLodging...I'm sorry your experience has been a bad one. I hope you are able to recover and move on.

[arel]

Yup. The same things get said by all sorts of posters. It's the weather and the economy that drive people away. VermntLodging's post is very sobering.

I honestly don't understand how people can survive with those low wages and high prices. When I have visited Brattleboro, I have sometimes been startled by how expensive things are. I've seen about the same prices as in New York City, but in Vermnt people are supposed to pay those prices on $10-15 per hour wages. How are people supposed to enjoy what Vermont has to offer if they are so financially stressed?

I like the winter. I love snow. I don't mind the cold if I have proper clothing and heat. We just had a snowstorm here in NYC. But driving home was nerve-wracking at times. I do not like it when I brake and the car keeps moving. Even with anti-lock brakes, I had to pump the brakes to keep the car from sliding. I went home and was grateful to have gotten home without having had a car accident. I did not go to my evening job. I figured no one would show up for their appointments and I did not want to risk driving on those slippery roads if I didn't have to. I understand things got worse during the evening. Right now it is raining, but there is still snow on the ground. If it is above freezing, the roads should be OK.

Winter driving is what is most concerning to me in Vermont. I am concerned about rural roads and about places where one can skid into bodies of water.

I am not as worried about finances as I would be if I had no specialized skills. I have a skilled profession (clinical social work) and I hope I can work at the Retreat or at another local agency and also build a private practice. Financially, I may even do better than I do here in Brookyn, believe it or not. For one thing, in New York therapists cannot see Medicaid patients privately. I believe that in Vermont therapists can. That's a big population of potential patients who would not otherwise be able to afford therapy.

Also, there is a great need for rental housing, as VermontLodging has said. In fact, Brattleboro gives grants to people who create apartments in their hmes. So if you want to move to Brattleboro, and you don't want to pay rent, you can buy, knowing that you can create rental housing if do cannot sell, or don't want to. That's a lot better than being stuck because your property does not sell. I suppose you can hire a property manager if you will be too far away to manage things yourself. But I haven't been in this position, and I would think that the actual experience is different from the imagined one.

But moving to Brattleboro is still a risk. A psychological risk, mostly, but a financial risk as well. I'll have money from the sale of my New York home, but probably less than I would have had last year. And I do not want to run that down.

And a winter that never quits can be draining. It can test the resolve of snow-lovers after a time. I wonder how many transplants leave after their first Vermont winter, with its cold, snow and heating bills.

At least in New York, the gas company usually will not turn off your service for nonpayment until the weather is warmer. I don't know how it is in in Vernont.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by GypsySoul22

About friends/knowing people...get a dog...amazing how nice people have become now we got our puppy. The bus driver, a gruff but nice man, actually smiled at us yesterday as puppy and I saw my son off to school!! The lady who helped us find this apartment called me 'socially' to congratulate us on our puppy...I thought she had 'business' with us but NO she called just to talk!!

Animals melt hearts, don't they?

When my husband and I leash-walk our cats, our neighbors pour out of their houses to speak with us, pet the cats, and swap stories about furry family members current and past. One of my cats is quite bold and we walk down the sidewalk right on Route 7. Cars carrying Vermonters have pulled off Route 7 and into parking lots to talk with us. One person took photos.

You want to make friends with others? Get the ultimate social magnet: A friendly animal rescued from a shelter or rescue group.

[GypsySoul22]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

You want to make friends with others? Get the ultimate social magnet: A friendly animal rescued from a shelter or rescue group.

Yes, our dog was from a rescue. She's lovely, even if I do have to get up at 5 am to take care of her after going to sleep only a few hours before.

Arel, I hate winter driving so that is half the reason I have not gotten a job yet. The idea of driving *stinks* in my opinion but here it is 'easier' than NY driving (less nutjobs per square inch, people let you go and yield to you.)

If I have to, once I get some income of my own, I will get some driving lessons to help my confidence.

The up and down roads are a bit worrying. My husband was coming home from work one late night and slid going 15 mph. Fortunately he is usually one of the few on the road at that time and did okay. I probably would have freaked.

When I feel myself panicking I think there are whole lot of old, old folks (no offense to anyone) driving around here...yes, the proverbial little old ladies..they can do it, so can I!!

[vter]

Gypsy...does your hubby have snow tires on his car? If not, you should invest in some.