[MRVphotog]

Wow, so many people with so many problems. I hope you all find happiness in your new state, for most, probably not. Please don't leave us a mess when you go.

[pucabear]

Originally Posted by MRVphotog

Wow, so many people with so many problems. I hope you all find happiness in your new state, for most, probably not. Please don't leave us a mess when you go.

It was because of the mess that I left....and for the record I love my new state!

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by MRVphotog

Wow, so many people with so many problems. I hope you all find happiness in your new state, for most, probably not. Please don't leave us a mess when you go.

It is quite possible to match and exceed VT's benefits (natural beauty, rural areas, lack of gun laws, etc.) without the socialism and high taxes it brings in VT. And that is precisely why the state will be unable to keep people here who would otherwise prefer to stay.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

It is quite possible to match and exceed VT's benefits (natural beauty, rural areas, lack of gun laws, etc.) without the socialism and high taxes it brings in VT.

I've heard many people refer to Vermont as Socialist. For the first time, I'm asking what is meant by that.

Vermont has one Socialist U.S. Senator. I don't think anyone in the VT state government self-identifies as Socialist.

I see no evidence that Vermont communities own, say, the means of production. We don't have free (or even affordable) healthcare for all (to say the least). As all states have to some degree, VT has subsidies for the poor and other groups, but they're hardly comprehensive as would occur in a Socialist state.

Communities don't necessarily get what they want in terms of budgets and tax structure. There certainly are high taxes, but the state doesn't control the prices of products to control the economy. And there's plenty of private property and corporate-owned property for those who can afford the price & taxes. Almost nothing in Vermont is nationalized ("state-ized"?).

So how is Vermont Socialist? Thanks for helping me understand.

[flu189]

Kind of confused about the reference to leaving a mess upon leaving. To date in three years the over $33k in state and local taxes I have fed to the coffers has truly been a steep price to reap the benefits of being a resident. There is quite a bit I really like about spending time here, but the level of "unhappiness" comes from the realization that under the current conditions continued extended years will become unsustainable. Due to certain commitments I can't so to speak fold up the tent and leave this year, but have already made arrangements to check out other regions this summer where despite the generic economic stressors that plague all parts of the nation my dollars will stretch further. I'll miss many things here, but having had the benefit of actually being here I have learned quite a bit. Anyway, this critique is not meant to be bitter or harbor malice, just actually reflect regret that I can't establish firm roots here.

[pucabear]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

I've heard many people refer to Vermont as Socialist. For the first time, I'm asking what is meant by that.

Vermont has one Socialist U.S. Senator. I don't think anyone in the VT state government self-identifies as Socialist.

I see no evidence that Vermont communities own, say, the means of production. We don't have free (or even affordable) healthcare for all (to say the least). As all states have to some degree, VT has subsidies for the poor and other groups, but they're hardly comprehensive as would occur in a Socialist state.

Communities don't necessarily get what they want in terms of budgets and tax structure. There certainly are high taxes, but the state doesn't control the prices of products to control the economy. And there's plenty of private property and corporate-owned property for those who can afford the price & taxes. Almost nothing in Vermont is nationalized ("state-ized"?).

So how is Vermont Socialist? Thanks for helping me understand.

My experience with Vermont's "socialism" stems from working for a period in social services. I am a teacher and worked in a program to help pregnant and teenage mothers get their high school educations and give them parent skills to help put them on the right path....or so I thought. It actually turned into enabling these young girls to work the state welfare system. I was so repulsed by what I saw and learned that I had to leave the job...and ultimately the state. I realized that if this is how these programs work, there would be no end to my rising taxes. The state and local government in Vermont is so focused on making things equal and fair, that they neglect the honest working people who try to play by the rules and do the right things to be productive members of society. I believe it is important to help people when they need a break, but not help people learn to work the very system that ultimately allows the government to reach in my pocket and give to those that choose not to help themselves.

[chaz longue]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

I've heard many people refer to Vermont as Socialist. For the first time, I'm asking what is meant by that.

Vermont has one Socialist U.S. Senator. I don't think anyone in the VT state government self-identifies as Socialist.

I see no evidence that Vermont communities own, say, the means of production. We don't have free (or even affordable) healthcare for all (to say the least). As all states have to some degree, VT has subsidies for the poor and other groups, but they're hardly comprehensive as would occur in a Socialist state.

Communities don't necessarily get what they want in terms of budgets and tax structure. There certainly are high taxes, but the state doesn't control the prices of products to control the economy. And there's plenty of private property and corporate-owned property for those who can afford the price & taxes. Almost nothing in Vermont is nationalized ("state-ized"?).

So how is Vermont Socialist? Thanks for helping me understand.

Great post, Sherylcatmom - Most of my progressive/left of center friends make wisecracks about The People's Republic Of Burlington, and VT being socialist. But they realize that describing VT as "socialist" is just rhetoric. By many standards, England is more socialist than VT is.

When I first moved here, there were more cows than people in the state, and most of the people were Republicans (the cows were never very forthcoming when asked). But the Republicans who predominated were of the New England tendency. George Aiken is a good guy to google for context...

There are a number of progressive aspects of government in VT, some laudable, and some not so much...but that progressive impulse in VT, (and in New England) is hardly accurately described as "socialism".

Property tax equalization (Brigham) is perhaps a clunky attempt at allowing equal opportunity for VT students - but it doesn't exactly make us Cuba - many other states have similar property tax systems instituted for similar reasons.

Act 250 ain't perfect, but it's done a pretty good job of keeping VT from being entirely paved overnight. It may be centralized control, but so's the zoning in every community. Most would argue for permit reform of some kind, but few would argue no such control of any kind be in place. These impediments to sprawl don't make us Venezuela.

Bernie himself, repeatedly elected to Mayor, US Congress, and now serving as half of our US senatorial delegation started out a very controversial guy. But during his tenure in Burlington, our city won an award for liveability from The US Congress of Mayors - every one of whom was a Democrat or a Republican, and group not ordinarily considered a not exactly a hotbed of socialism.

So yeah - if a garden variety food coop (forgive the pun) strikes you as suspect, you might find VT "socialist". But most of us just consider VT progressive. Even our Republican Governor seems pretty happy here.

Cheers,
David

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by pucabear

The state and local government in Vermont is so focused on making things equal and fair, that they neglect the honest working people who try to play by the rules and do the right things to be productive members of society. I believe it is important to help people when they need a break, but not help people learn to work the very system that ultimately allows the government to reach in my pocket and give to those that choose not to help themselves.

Thanks! That helps me understand your thinking. That description depicts Vermont as being a welfare state for some of its residents to the detriment of other residents, and ultimately to the detriment even of those receiving the welfare if it motivates them to seek more state welfare.

Still doesn't sound like Socialism to me though.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by chaz longue

So yeah - if a garden variety food coop (forgive the pun) strikes you as suspect, you might find VT "socialist". But most of us just consider VT progressive. Even our Republican Governor seems pretty happy here.

Thank you! That helps. I thought maybe the frequent use of the word "socialism" actually meant something -- or that we might actually all get health insurance coverage someday. But it seems to be just an incitement to argument.

I love my co-op. :-)

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by pucabear

My experience with Vermont's "socialism" stems from working for a period in social services. I am a teacher and worked in a program to help pregnant and teenage mothers get their high school educations and give them parent skills to help put them on the right path....or so I thought. It actually turned into enabling these young girls to work the state welfare system. I was so repulsed by what I saw and learned that I had to leave the job...and ultimately the state. I realized that if this is how these programs work, there would be no end to my rising taxes. The state and local government in Vermont is so focused on making things equal and fair, that they neglect the honest working people who try to play by the rules and do the right things to be productive members of society.

Everyone likes to forget that the people are the state government. You (we) elect the representatives. If you don't like it, then you need to a) run for office or b) get active and make your voice heard.

Sitting around complaining does nothing. You said you worked with pregnant teenagers. Did you make sure they understood what they did was wrong or did you just act all accepting so that they can tell their friends there is nothing wrong with teen pregnancy?

I agree with you that the government should have nothing whatsoever to do with families, but we can't say that and at the same time accept it by not fighting the system at every turn.