Why Do People Leave Vermont? (property taxes, budget, travel)

[GoinDownSlow]

I was raised in Vermont. I went through public school here and graduated with a degree from UVM. I'm leaving because accessibility here is a joke. The lack of proper infrastructure for accessible buildings and public transportation means that it is impossible for a handicapped person to be social or be any kind of spontaneous in their schedule.

Yes, the busses are supposedly accessible. Yes, there is supposedly a Paratransit service. But anyone who's ever depended on them knows that they are completely unreliable.

I didn't want to leave Vermont. The lack of accessibility is forcing me out. Shame on Montpelier.

[flu189]

Well, I guess being in the thread of why people leave Vt, the available "stock" of both genders and their corresponding features is perhaps a factor. I don't think fashion so much is a major factor as where I used to live the very casual outdoor look was also dominant. Now personally I don't so much care as I have been married for quite some time now. I realize that physical appearance barring a lack of physical fitness is something that we can't control, well maybe with botox and surgery, but a couple of my son's friends have visited and one especially commented what's up with the "Doonesbury" look. Ever since then it has been stuck in my head and by gosh quite a bit of the population does look like they could have been the inspiration for the strip

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by GoinDownSlow

Yes, the busses are supposedly accessible. Yes, there is supposedly a Paratransit service. But anyone who's ever depended on them knows that they are completely unreliable.

I didn't want to leave Vermont. The lack of accessibility is forcing me out. Shame on Montpelier.

I'm really sorry to learn that. Are you encountering other hindrances besides transportation (which is a key issue all by itself)?

Do you have somewhere else in mind that you already know is more accessible and able to meet your needs? I'm curious about places that are doing better and if they're measures that Vermont could possibly put in place with realistic levels of effort & money.

[chaz longue]

Originally Posted by flu189

Well, I guess being in the thread of why people leave Vt, the available "stock" of both genders and their corresponding features is perhaps a factor. I don't think fashion so much is a major factor as where I used to live the very casual outdoor look was also dominant. Now personally I don't so much care as I have been married for quite some time now. I realize that physical appearance barring a lack of physical fitness is something that we can't control, well maybe with botox and surgery, but a couple of my son's friends have visited and one especially commented what's up with the "Doonesbury" look. Ever since then it has been stuck in my head and by gosh quite a bit of the population does look like they could have been the inspiration for the strip

Ed Koren's cartoons seem full of Vermonters too. He's frequently spotted on Church street himself, though I'd guess few recognize him.

Heck, Bernie could blend right into a cartoon by either artist

[Targo]

I have a new opinion.

If you don't like VT get the hell out and don't let the door hit you in the a$$. We won't miss you.

[pucabear]

Originally Posted by Targo

I have a new opinion.

If you don't like VT get the hell out and don't let the door hit you in the a$$. We won't miss you.

Ironically...that attitude is part of the reason I left.

[flu189]

Originally Posted by Targo

I have a new opinion.

If you don't like VT get the hell out and don't let the door hit you in the a$$. We won't miss you.

Whoa! I just might when the market is more favorable and I return from the impending deployment I am facing. Actually, my wife is more concerned about staying here in my absence so who knows, even under a stop loss I will still of course go with my fellow Vermont troops, but with power of attorney she might just as well take the year to so to speak fold up the tents. Granted, for some Vt holds little allure, but I for one will miss quite a bit it. In the end it comes down to sustainability.

[GoinDownSlow]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

I'm really sorry to learn that. Are you encountering other hindrances besides transportation (which is a key issue all by itself)?

Transportation and things relating to it are my biggest frustration. It's impossible to get around Vermont without a car. The busses are unreliable and have restrictive hours. And despite what the operators tell you, the lifts are out of order frequently and I've encountered a few drivers who don't know what to do with me.

The Paratransit service is a joke. They only transport people to hospitals and doctors appointments. I understand that they are providing a vital service for those who need to get to these places, but what about the disabled people who want to get to work, school, or a night out with friends?

The Paratransit service is also completely unreliable. I've been stuck for hours at places because the driver forgot or received a better offer and decided not to pick me up.

But also, even when you get where you're going... good luck getting a wheelchair in there. Stores, businesses, restaurants... a surprising number of them aren't accessible, and don't have to be because they are small enough that the laws don't apply to them. A lot of downtown Burlington is this way.

But also, the majority of houses and housing buildings (apartments, condos, etc). aren't accessible. I can't go over to a friend's house because I can't get in that friend's house. There's always stairs, or the doorways are too small, or everything is accessible except for a random lip out front that totally stops wheelchairs from getting in.

Do you have somewhere else in mind that you already know is more accessible and able to meet your needs? I'm curious about places that are doing better and if they're measures that Vermont could possibly put in place with realistic levels of effort & money.

That's the problem. Unfortunately, the general population doesn't seem to care about making things accessible, (or better yet, doing Universal Design so EVERYBODY benefits and things don't have to be "made accessible"). The only places that REALLY spend money on decent infrastructure for the disabled are the places with the money to spend (i.e.,: high taxes).

The top cities are places like San Francisco, New Haven, CT, Boulder, CO, Portland, OR and Berkeley, CA. All these places have EXTREMELY high taxes.

It's why in a place like Florida, where so much of the population is elderly and/or disabled, there are subpar services for the disabled. They have no income tax, so no money is put into the needed improvements.

Vermont has the money. We all know what the cost of living is like here. But since Vermont puts so much emphasis on maintaining it's "rustic beauty" and let's a whole bunch of establishments be grandfathered in to not being accessible because it maintains the "natural" look the state wants, they don't bother.

I can understand why Vermont does this. It's "old school, small town" look and feel is one of its strongest selling points (even in "progressive" places like Chittenden County). If I wasn't disabled, I would love Vermont. But unfortunately, Vermont's preference of looks and feel over function forces people like me out.

As for me, I've got a job offer in DC. That would be better. The Metro (and generally streamlined public transportation) will make getting around on MY schedule more feasible. They will definitely be able to get me to work and to major attractions.

But in the places I'd like to live (The DC 'burbs in Maryland and Virginia), even they might be too spread out for a disabled person to reliably do the "day to day" things -- getting to the grocery store, a restaurant, a movie, a doctor -- without a car.

I might be relegated to a city like New York, Boston, Chicago, or the actual District of Columbia -- where things are more practically designed so that everything is within reach. Where public transportation can really replace a car.

Are the DC suburbs like that? Can public transportation replace are car, or merely compliment it. I don't know. But Vermont doesn't have a prayer.

If you're disabled in Vermont and without a car, you're stuck inside your house.

Thanks for letting me vent, Sheryl. It's nice to know that people care.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by GoinDownSlow

Thanks for letting me vent, Sheryl. It's nice to know that people care.

Absolutely. I had no idea that so many places were inaccessible to so many people.

I think one huge problem in meeting these needs is low awareness. Unless one lives with physical limitations, or is close to someone who cannot physically use mainstream facilities, the problem is nearly invisible. If I saw someone having difficulty entering a store, I would offer to help. But I'm not sure it would even occur to me to think, "Why is that store so difficult for them to get into?"

I have heard of people covering their eyes or using a wheelchair for a day or a week to learn what the issues really are. It sounds like some of our legislators and decision-makers might do well to try this.

Thanks for this new awareness. I'll have my eyes open to accessibility issues. Meanwhile, I hope you find what you want and need wherever you go.

[chaz longue]

Originally Posted by GoinDownSlow

Transportation and things relating to it are my biggest frustration. It's impossible to get around Vermont without a car. The busses are unreliable and have restrictive hours. And despite what the operators tell you, the lifts are out of order frequently and I've encountered a few drivers who don't know what to do with me.

The Paratransit service is a joke. They only transport people to hospitals and doctors appointments. I understand that they are providing a vital service for those who need to get to these places, but what about the disabled people who want to get to work, school, or a night out with friends?

The Paratransit service is also completely unreliable. I've been stuck for hours at places because the driver forgot or received a better offer and decided not to pick me up.

But also, even when you get where you're going... good luck getting a wheelchair in there. Stores, businesses, restaurants... a surprising number of them aren't accessible, and don't have to be because they are small enough that the laws don't apply to them. A lot of downtown Burlington is this way.

But also, the majority of houses and housing buildings (apartments, condos, etc). aren't accessible. I can't go over to a friend's house because I can't get in that friend's house. There's always stairs, or the doorways are too small, or everything is accessible except for a random lip out front that totally stops wheelchairs from getting in.



That's the problem. Unfortunately, the general population doesn't seem to care about making things accessible, (or better yet, doing Universal Design so EVERYBODY benefits and things don't have to be "made accessible"). The only places that REALLY spend money on decent infrastructure for the disabled are the places with the money to spend (i.e.,: high taxes).

The top cities are places like San Francisco, New Haven, CT, Boulder, CO, Portland, OR and Berkeley, CA. All these places have EXTREMELY high taxes.

It's why in a place like Florida, where so much of the population is elderly and/or disabled, there are subpar services for the disabled. They have no income tax, so no money is put into the needed improvements.

Vermont has the money. We all know what the cost of living is like here. But since Vermont puts so much emphasis on maintaining it's "rustic beauty" and let's a whole bunch of establishments be grandfathered in to not being accessible because it maintains the "natural" look the state wants, they don't bother.

I can understand why Vermont does this. It's "old school, small town" look and feel is one of its strongest selling points (even in "progressive" places like Chittenden County). If I wasn't disabled, I would love Vermont. But unfortunately, Vermont's preference of looks and feel over function forces people like me out.

As for me, I've got a job offer in DC. That would be better. The Metro (and generally streamlined public transportation) will make getting around on MY schedule more feasible. They will definitely be able to get me to work and to major attractions.

But in the places I'd like to live (The DC 'burbs in Maryland and Virginia), even they might be too spread out for a disabled person to reliably do the "day to day" things -- getting to the grocery store, a restaurant, a movie, a doctor -- without a car.

I might be relegated to a city like New York, Boston, Chicago, or the actual District of Columbia -- where things are more practically designed so that everything is within reach. Where public transportation can really replace a car.

Are the DC suburbs like that? Can public transportation replace are car, or merely compliment it. I don't know. But Vermont doesn't have a prayer.

If you're disabled in Vermont and without a car, you're stuck inside your house.

Thanks for letting me vent, Sheryl. It's nice to know that people care.

Vent away! I drove a lift quipped van for years, so I'm somewhat aware of how difficult it can be here.

Is Montreal as good as it seems to me it would be? The interconnected (world's largest) underground in the Winter, and the vast bike/walk path networks seem like they'd make life easier - but this is just a guess...

David