[tkln]

The Canadian presence is huge here in Waterbury/Stowe and I'm guessing just slightly less in MRV. The lack of Quebec license plates this year has been ridiculously noticeable...they are a large group of second homeowners and vacationers.

[CatwomanofV]

What others have said about living close to a hospital, my vote will go to living close to the Rutland Hospital. My husband & sister-in-law have both been treated for cancer there and have received EXCELLENT care. In fact, my sister-in-law came to stay with us just so she could be treated at Rutland.

I understand that Rutland County has its issues (I know. I live in Rutland County) but there are several small, nice towns. Poultney, Pittsfield, Fair Haven, West Rutland, Castleton, Middletown Springs just to name a few. Each one has its issues but each one also has its advantages. Personally, I wouldn't mind living in any town in Rutland County (including Rutland-but that is just a bit too urban for me).


Cat

[zendwa]

@Cat -- I really don't know that more-southern part of Vermont. Will put it on the list.

@tkln -- I lived in a Colorado ski town, and I get it. I really like Stowe, but from an affordability standpoint (because of the second-homeowner aspect) I don't think that's where I'm headed.

@squrpeg -- The other thing I like about your comment refers to the liberal aspects of Vermont. There are few places (that I'm aware of) that are both rural AND liberal. One of our big motivations for moving is to get away from rural and overly conservative.

[ctr88]

I think that is good advice to try to live closer to a decent sized town that has some services, activities, hustle/bustle. You might initially love some isolated large acreage property, but it being far from "anything" can eventually wear on you.

I think the towns outside of Rutland are a good suggestion. It's cheaper over there and not so hard core left wing (you may not care about that though). Burlington, Montpelier, Brattleboro are mecca's for the antifa, blm, marxist, stupid protests and marches, etc... hard core lefty crowd. Full on echo chamber leftist bubbles. Rutland area a lot less so, more balanced politically over there. And Rutland has all the shopping you need. But don't live IN Rutland proper itself, the small towns outside of it. Also closer to the Albany NY metro area over that way.

The Upper Valley I think is a very convenient area but expensive. You are close to Dartmouth College and all the events it brings, the top notch medical center, closer to everything in NH and the coast, closer to Boston, right at the intersection of 89 & 91, small airport with commercial service to Boston and NYC. Good restaurant selection in Hanover/Leb/White River The Dartmouth Coach located in Lebanon NH is fantastic for non-stop service to Boston and Logan airport.

[zendwa]

Avoiding the bigger cities is the plan. Have no interest in cities such as Burlington, Montpelier, etc. We want to be just outside some place with "just enough" services -- places like Morristown seem the right size. Next visit will research Rutland, but really don't need or want access to Boston, Albany, HN, etc.

I've lived on the "isolated large acreage property" (12 acres on the border of a National Forest; 30 minutes from anything; and having to plow 5 miles of road in winter to get to a highway) and I know that's no longer in the picture, either.

Just a balance of an affordable bit of property for gardening; lots of nearby outdoor recreation access (esp hiking); and close "enough" to the essential services. A slowed-down, simplified life.

[JGBigGreen]

If you get outside of the immediate Hanover/Norwich area of the Upper Valley things get much more affordable yet you are still close to the amenities of the West Lebanon area and DHMC for health care.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by Aville239

Vermont taxes both retirement income and Social Security. If it was me, a Vermont native, I would choose western MA over VT. No retirement taxes and less hype. Try Franklin County on the VT border if you want small.

Massachusetts doesn't tax Social Security but they tax all other sources of retirement income other than state & local pensions for Massachusetts workers or workers from states that have reciprocity (New York, mostly). You have to do the math for your particular circumstances but a retired couple with pensions/annuities or IRA/401(k) distributions is probably going to be in the 3.35% bracket in Vermont. Vermont has a $12k standard deduction so the 3.35% bracket extends up to about $75k AGI. Massachusetts for married filing status is only a $8,800 personal exemption. In Vermont, if you have $75k in income filing married, you pay about $1,820 in taxes. In Massachusetts, you'd pay that much tax on a $48k 401(k) distribution.


As I wrote up-thread, I'd do a consult with a CPA to get a handle on where you really stand with taxes. Most retirees won't pay much Vermont state income tax. Most retirees will be shielded from the worst of the state Act 68 school property tax.


I'd also point out that Vermont doesn't have an automobile excise tax. The Massachusetts tax is only painful for new-ish cars but if you're a buy every three years and trade kind of car owner, you'll be paying some pretty big excise taxes.


...and to bring up health care again, the only large hospital in Western Mass is Bay State Medical in Springfield with the 30% poverty rate. If I had to pick between UVM Medical and Bay State Medical with something seriously wrong with me, I know what I'd pick. My fiancee has a bunch of people down the road from Bay State Medical at the other smaller hospital in town. It's really hard to staff health care in Springfield. Nobody wants to live there and it's a big fraction of Medicaid so it has compensation problems for specialists. It's technically a "teaching hospital" but it's not the pick of anyone in the top half of their class in medical school. There are closer hospitals but they're regional hospitals who are going to bounce you to Bay State for anything serious. Burlington doesn't have that problem.

[zendwa]

Great tax info. Although that's one of the many factors we'll consider, our preferred lifestyle is tops. Every place has some positives and negatives, and I can deal with a little more "this" and a little less "that" if all the other things fall into place -- housing costs, our unique lifestyle desires, climate, recreation, etc., etc.

Thanks to all for the continuing great insights. The next research trip is going to have to be a long one!

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by zendwa

Great tax info. Although that's one of the many factors we'll consider, our preferred lifestyle is tops. Every place has some positives and negatives, and I can deal with a little more "this" and a little less "that" if all the other things fall into place -- housing costs, our unique lifestyle desires, climate, recreation, etc., etc.

Thanks to all for the continuing great insights. The next research trip is going to have to be a long one!

Make sure you understand energy costs. You may come from the world of cheap natural gas from fracking. Natural gas is piped down from Quebec through Burlington and I think the pipeline now extends to Middlebury but the places you're considering won't have natural gas. Home heating oil is cheap at the moment but historical prices make for a pretty stiff heating bill for the typical drafty older Vermont housing stock. Propane is also expensive. There's a reason why Vermonters have wood stoves (and pellet stoves). Electricity tends to be expensive because of the care and feeding of a rural power grid in a place where trees are everywhere. Even if it's cheaper HydroQuebec electricity, there are still all the crews with hard hats and bucket trucks to pay for. Since you say you've lived rural, you already know about gasoline pump prices in small towns. You can find $1.99 in cheaper gas places like Rutland but it will be 20 cents higher at the general store near your house. Vermont can get pretty hot in the summer. Lots of people are retrofitting mini splits. I used to have a native Vermonter co-worker who talked about when he was in the navy stationed in Hawaii. "Vermont? It gets cold there!" "Well, it also gets hotter than you ever see here."


You'll also get to experience town meeting. I had Frank Bryan for a political science course a jillion years ago. He wrote a book called "Real Democracy" written in 2004. You can buy it used on Amazon for ~$7.50. He spent his life studying Vermont town meeting. I think he still lives in Starksboro. I recommend his book to anyone considering moving to small town Vermont.

[zendwa]

@Geoff -- I'll snag the book; sounds interesting.

As for heat... I live in a "supposedly cheap" electric state (Washington) with "supposedly cheap" power from Columbia River hydro, but my winter heat bill in a relatively mild winter climate in my very small (all electric) house is regularly $250/month.

As for pump prices, anything less than ~$2.75/gallon around here is considered awesome.

Guess it's all pretty relative.