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To some, the moment you hire employees you stop being a "family farm". Personally, I disagree. The average dairy farm 50 years ago had a few dozen cows. If the national average is now 125 dairy cows per dairy farm, then you simply must have the modern day equivalent of four 1950's dairy farms combined, which takes more than one family to work. So I believe a more inclusive definition of a family farm is warranted these days.
Sean, the figures you cite on milk-born diseases in 1938 (pre-pasturization) vs. today have no validity in comparing raw milk to pasturized milk. In 1938, milk was delivered warm to the train stations in uninsulated metal cans, where it sat in the sun until picked up by the train. Refrigeration on the farm was non-existant, and the refers on the trains were only cooled (not really refrigerated as we use the phrase today) by ice. Sanitation was not enforced on farms, and cows with mastitis were milked out right along with those that were healthy. There was little or no testing of milk. Even butter, with its preservative salt was often rancid by the time it reached homes.
It wasn't until the 1950s that our family farm had to put in a big bulk tank and refrigeration unit to continue to supply the co-op. I remember, because that area had previously been used to house chickens, and I used to sit on the milk cans and watch them.
One of the major issues with commercial agriculture as practiced today is the way that it mixes product into a single stream. The recent tomato scare points out the insanity of bulking together a product in a soviet-era factory production and then distributing it hundreds or thousands of miles as an anonymous mass. Big dairy milk is treated the same way.
In contrast, with raw milk, you put your faith and trust into the individual who is running the farm. If that person knows their herd and knows the science, the milk is as safe as breast milk. Remember when it was thought that bottle feeding was superior to breast feeding? It is in the nature of business to attempt to create a market by scare tactics. "You NEED our product, because something REALLY BAD will happen if you don't have it." That list includes, but is not limited to, baby formula, personal tasers, pepper spray, vegetable wash, flouride in water systems, hand sanitizers, and hot air hand driers. Can a person find supporting evidence that all of the above are needed? Sure. Does that mean that we each have to venture out armed to the hilt, and dressed in a bio-suit? Of course not.
Will you find farmers that have large operations who refuse to drink raw milk? Sure. Their experience with having seemingly healthy cows test out bad, and knowing how the bulking system allows batches of milk to be contaminated has made them wary.
The real indictment is not on raw milk from healthy cows, but on the distribution system that can have one sick cow contaminate an entire truckload of milk. Playing it safe with pasturization is a cost effective marketing tool that reduces risk at the expense of quality. Unfortunately, in addition to the adulterating of the milk in processing, homogenization has become concurrent with that process, creating yet more issues concerning with the way the body absorbs milk fat.
I have no problem drinking raw milk - if I know where it comes from - and I even have no problem eating raw eggs, provided I get to inspect them as they are cracked. I've been sick from eggs eggsactly one time in my life, and that one time was when I ordered scrambled eggs at a restaurant that mixed a gross of eggs into a container, and then tried to cook the whole batch.
The point about being able to taste the grass in raw milk is so true. I happen to be extremely sensitive to off-flavors in milk, and have often had to stop drinking a glass because I could taste the silage or other component that wasn't right. The milk in stores now has minimal flavor components, good or bad.
Anyway, the point of eating local is partly in knowing what you eat instead of scarfing down a McShake, only to discover that it contains no milk, and maybe minimal milk product along with a lot of gums, fillers, and coloring from dead insects. Eating sterilized wood flour or the bark of the guar tree maybe safe on the short term, but it isn't my idea of good eats.
Hi Adream, I believe there is a farm in St. Albans Vt. that sells raw milk. Also another in E. Fairfield that I heard was selling raw milk... check it out.
Peter
Back in the '70s we summered with my wife's grandparents in Landaff, NH and bought raw milk from a neighbor. He had Gurnsey cows and the milk tasted like half & half. Absolutely wonderful.The grandparents are both gone and so are all the dairy farms. We miss them all.
FWIW - Family farms almost always had a hired handyman or milkmaid to help with the chores. Farming is very hard work and without machinery was even harder.
... we were the ONLY ones there and the husband spent the entire meal with us. It was nice talking to him, but I would have liked to enjoy the meal a bit more in private. The wife is the chef, and she's great...I'd go back, but only when it's busy.
TKLN, I'll definitely give it another try. Our experience that night was so rare for a restaurant in Stowe. Usually, the quality of both food and service are first rate.
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Originally Posted by FourWands
Are you looking for raw specifically or just non-homogenized?
Ha! Funny you should mention Applecheek Farm! They participate in the Raw Milk Ice Cream Socials held throughout the state this summer. I sent them an email hoping that I can buy from them. Thanks for sharing the info!
I should have thought of Applecheek!! I've bought their eggs....
That is interesting about your L.I. fiance being able to drink the raw milk with no problem. My youngest DD is L.I. - I wonder if she could drink this? Aso, I'm planning on buying Applecheek Farm eggs too. Fresh free-range eggs from the farm...delicious!
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Originally Posted by MRVphotog
That reminds me, since there is orange colored cheese at the store does anyone know where there are cows that produce milk that color? I heard it was cows from Wisconson....
My DF's side of the family are in Wisconsin. When they visit, we have to buy orange American cheese because they don't like the white American cheese that my kids like (and they won't eat the orange cheese!)
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Originally Posted by seanpecor
The government would never allow mass production of raw milk to be re-introduced into groceries because it is the government's job to protect its citizens.
This is all of course just my opinion. I'm not arguing against allowing folks to buy raw milk from farmers. I'm all for it. I just get a little defensive when established science gets tossed out the window in favor of the latest health fad "du jour".
Sean
I do appreciate your input, and the links you provided certainly provide compelling reading. However I must take umbrage with one of your statements - "The government would never allow mass production of raw milk to be re-introduced into groceries because it is the government's job to protect its citizens."
I don't think protecting us is always their primary motivation for what is approved or not. It often comes down to financial considerations. Plus, I would much rather make my own informed decisions about what I put into my body. This goverment of ours that is so interested in protecting us also approved saccharine, hydrogenated fats, flouride and sodium nitrates for us to ingest to name a few. I have issues with everyone of these.
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Originally Posted by mustmove
Organic kills
You're silly.
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Originally Posted by seanpecor
I know several dairy farming families in Vermont (some with 700+ head) and none of them would drink raw milk regularly.
What has been injected into their cows that produced that milk? My DH has relatives that own large dairy farms in Northern Vermont, which we have visited. Those cows are literally hooked up to I.V.'s where the antibiotics and hormones are injected daily. I wouldn't drink that milk either. Someone told me about a dairy that provides organic, certified raw milk, which I'll be checking out. That would be perfect!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWands
Raw milk isn't necessarily higher in fat that regular store bought milk. Holsteins, the black and white cows that produce the most milk and therefore are the choice cow for many commercial dairies run just slightly over 3% butterfat. Jersey cows will be higher with closer to 5% butterfat but they also produce the least of the commercial dairy breeds so many farmers will pass them over unless they are selling to a cheese or ice cream maker. (Jersey milk also tends to be yellow tinged due to the higher BF).
I also know a handful of dairy farmers personally and not one of them goes out and buys a gallon of milk from the store or bothers to pasteurize it at home.
I drink raw milk every day from our own herd of animals and have never been sick from it. Our dogs also get it and the only thing that has made them sick was the melamine that tainted their commercially prepared dog food.
I do not know the source but someone has been posting raw milk for sale on the Vermont Craigslist. They have been posting under the farm and garden section.
And last, I had asked but the OP did not respond... you don't need raw milk if all you want is milk thats cream rises to the top. You can get non-homogenized milk at Hunger Mountain Coop in Montpelier so I am assuming other coops will have it as well.
Thank you for the Craigslist mention FourWands. I never thought to check that. Yes, I'm interested in the milk that has the fat content for the cream to rise to the top, but I am also interested in the certified raw milk. Thank you for mentioning the co-op in Montpelier. I'll check that out. How did your dogs make out after eating the melamine tainted food? Were they okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRVphotog
As I mentioned in another thread even in the 70's the milk came out of the barn cold, people were aware of refrigeration and how milk needed to be refrigerated.
We had electricity back then too.
Hey, I remember electricity in the '70's! Didn't we need a crank to get it started?
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Originally Posted by seanpecor
I hope everyone knows I was just chiming in about the raw milk because I have safety concerns. I don't want people to think I've got an axe to grind with people who drink raw milk! Sean
That's good to know Sean. I wasn't sure, but I appreciate you clearing that up. It's always good to gather complete information, and you've contributed balance to this topic. I'm still gonna find that raw milk though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRVphotog
Gotcha but personally the defination of a family farm for me is one family, one farm. I know the numbers are going down but there still seems to be enough to get fresh eggs, milk and then there's all the fresh veggies from the farm at all the many farmer's markets around the state.
Making money as a dairy farm is hard even with the current good prices/lb they currently get for milk, so I understand family farms have to grow to survive. Having a farmer buy another farm instead of some huge corp is a positive thing.
The points you have made here represent another reason why I like to buy from the farmers while in Vermont. I like to support them any way I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
Sean, the figures you cite on milk-born diseases in 1938 (pre-pasturization) vs. today have no validity in comparing raw milk to pasturized milk. In 1938, milk was delivered warm to the train stations in uninsulated metal cans, where it sat in the sun until picked up by the train. Refrigeration on the farm was non-existant, and the refers on the trains were only cooled (not really refrigerated as we use the phrase today) by ice. Sanitation was not enforced on farms, and cows with mastitis were milked out right along with those that were healthy. There was little or no testing of milk. Even butter, with its preservative salt was often rancid by the time it reached homes.
It wasn't until the 1950s that our family farm had to put in a big bulk tank and refrigeration unit to continue to supply the co-op. I remember, because that area had previously been used to house chickens, and I used to sit on the milk cans and watch them.......
Anyway, the point of eating local is partly in knowing what you eat instead of scarfing down a McShake, only to discover that it contains no milk, and maybe minimal milk product along with a lot of gums, fillers, and coloring from dead insects. Eating sterilized wood flour or the bark of the guar tree maybe safe on the short term, but it isn't my idea of good eats.
Awesome post HARRYCHICKPEA!! I was reading similar information regarding early sanitation and preserving (or lack thereof) of milk. In fact, in the early 1900's, formaldehyde was added to milk thinking it would preserve it. Not surprising to learn that many of these poor little things died after ingesting the formaldehyde laced milk. Here's an interesting article describing the condition of commercially distributed milk way back 'in the day.' (We've come a long way since then.) IHB: Fighting for Healthly Milk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidway1944
Hi Adream, I believe there is a farm in St. Albans Vt. that sells raw milk. Also another in E. Fairfield that I heard was selling raw milk... check it out. Peter
Thanks Peter, we get up to St. Albans to visit relatives - I will check it out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
Back in the '70s we summered with my wife's grandparents in Landaff, NH and bought raw milk from a neighbor. He had Gurnsey cows and the milk tasted like half & half. Absolutely wonderful.The grandparents are both gone and so are all the dairy farms. We miss them all.
FWIW - Family farms almost always had a hired handyman or milkmaid to help with the chores. Farming is very hard work and without machinery was even harder.
What wonderful memories you have from that time. I agree Greg, farming is hard work and the families who own and run these farms are so important to us all. There are people who go to the supermarket and place produce or dairy in their carts and never think about who did the hard work to provide this bounty that we all enjoy.
When DD1 was little, we lived near a dairy farm where I could purchase certified raw milk for her and myself. It was clean, delicious and we never had one problem. She was rarely sick, and to this day (at age 24) has never had a single cavity (no flouride drops, don't believe in ingested flouride.)
I sincerely appreciate everyone's input - this turned out to be even more interesting that I had imagined!
Thank you for the Craigslist mention FourWands. I never thought to check that. Yes, I'm interested in the milk that has the fat content for the cream to rise to the top, but I am also interested in the certified raw milk. Thank you for mentioning the co-op in Montpelier. I'll check that out. How did your dogs make out after eating the melamine tainted food? Were they okay?
Our elderly Manchester Terrier was the only one getting the melamine tainted food and unfortunately, it weakened her substantially. She died within a few months. While I won't say the food was the sole cause of her death, it certainly helped her along the way. Thank you for asking.
BTW, someone is advertising raw milk today on Craiglist.
Jersey Milk- raw (http://burlington.craigslist.org/grd/761419038.html - broken link)
Our elderly Manchester Terrier was the only one getting the melamine tainted food and unfortunately, it weakened her substantially. She died within a few months. While I won't say the food was the sole cause of her death, it certainly helped her along the way. Thank you for asking.
BTW, someone is advertising raw milk today on Craiglist.
Jersey Milk- raw (http://burlington.craigslist.org/grd/761419038.html - broken link)
Oh, I am so sorry about your dog, poor little thing.
Thank you for the Craigslist link - I'm off to check it out.
This was in yesterday's Sunday Paper....it's a cartoon, it's humor, hope you get a chuckle. Teed's is a weekly cartoon by Jeff Danzinger. His Teed's book is hilarious.
MOD CUT - Per the Terms of Service, please post LINKS to any material that is copyrighted. Thanks.
He is Vermont's only nationally know cartoonist, he mostly does political satire. But being a Vermonter, former New Yorker I think, his stuff on Vermont life is very popular here.
This was in yesterday's Sunday Paper....it's a cartoon, it's humor, hope you get a chuckle. Teed's is a weekly cartoon by Jeff Danzinger. His Teed's book is hilarious.
http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/teeds_001.jpg (broken link)
He is Vermont's only nationally know cartoonist, he mostly does political satire. But being a Vermonter, former New Yorker I think, his stuff on Vermont life is very popular here.
That cartoon just tickled me - thanks for sharing that MRVphotog!
On my way to Middlebury on Route 30 I saw there was a farm selling fresh milk. I think it was in the Town of Cornwall. There was a sign in front of the farm.
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