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Old 09-06-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Vermont
1,442 posts, read 5,898,152 times
Reputation: 450

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flu189 View Post
When traveling to and from work or even going to the store I am usually armed. Mind you, it's concealed and not apparent what so ever, yet can be rapidly deployed should the need arise. Realistically I doubt I would ever encounter a situation where the need to use force for defense would be necessary, but I know enough to know that we have enough thugs that there is a chance our paths may cross and I will not become a victim. Emotionally and psychologically I also am fully prepared to use deadly force as a last resort should it become necessary. If you are not comfortable with the thought of carrying and potentially using deadly force, then that is totally understandable. If you feel you have no problem then by all means get proficient with the use of your weapon and fully understand the law and implications of using such force. I personally have experience with weapons from both the civilian and military side for several decades, yet I am keenly aware that especially in a state like Vermont should you use force the courts and attorneys can make your life into an emotional and fiscal nightmare as they always have the luxury of spending significant after the fact time in their analysis and interpretation.

This is one of the things that deter me. In NYC, we had the case of Bernhard Goetz, who shot four muggers on the subway. If I remember correctly, a grand jury refused to indict him on assault or attempted murder charges, but he got sent to jail for about a year for carrying a gun. And then he got sued, successfully, by the family of one of the muggers, who was left permanently disabled. "Bernie" Goetz became a bit of a folk hero in NYC, but the fact is that he paid dearly for his act of self-defense. There were political issues involved in his case as well.

I also remember a case where a burglar was injured by a booby-trapped window. He sued the homeowner and won, on the grounds that the protection of life is more important than the protection of property.

And women's prisons are full of women who are serving long sentences for defending themselves against abusive males.

I need to learn more about Vermont's laws and culture. It is obviously very different from that of New York City. But still, if you use deadly force, you will have to deal with the fallout, which could inflict serious emotional and financial damage to your life.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:33 PM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,185,161 times
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I don't worry about it much, if at all. But I've been carrying a gun every day for almost 18 years.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:34 AM
 
890 posts, read 2,561,544 times
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Wow! this thread has been an eye-opener for me! I had no idea Vermont had liberal gun ownership laws, not to mention residents ready and willing to carry them! I live in CA, and many homeowners have guns as there is quite a bit of crime, even in suburbia. As for lenient laws, it's funny because when I visited upstate NY last summer, I was very surprised at their rather lax attitude towards criminals, and the light sentences offenders received. Just what I gleaned from reading the local paper and watching the news, it seemed the law was not as tough as what we are used to here
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:30 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,185,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4home View Post
Wow! this thread has been an eye-opener for me! I had no idea Vermont had liberal gun ownership laws, not to mention residents ready and willing to carry them! I live in CA, and many homeowners have guns as there is quite a bit of crime, even in suburbia. As for lenient laws, it's funny because when I visited upstate NY last summer, I was very surprised at their rather lax attitude towards criminals, and the light sentences offenders received. Just what I gleaned from reading the local paper and watching the news, it seemed the law was not as tough as what we are used to here
Vermont does not have liberal gun laws. it follows the Constitution. California infringes on those rights.

Vermont has the best gun laws in the country.
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Western views of Mansfield/Camels Hump!
1,941 posts, read 3,228,155 times
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Lilybeans - do you know how the VT and Texas gun laws compare? I know Texas has some sort of law where you can kill to protect your property - is it called the castle law? I forget now...does VT have a similar law?

Arel - I remember the Bernie Goetz case as well...it was huge, and it was a real shame that he got into any sort of trouble at all. It seemed the criminals were victorious in that case.
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:44 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,185,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkln View Post
Lilybeans - do you know how the VT and Texas gun laws compare? I know Texas has some sort of law where you can kill to protect your property - is it called the castle law? I forget now...does VT have a similar law?

Arel - I remember the Bernie Goetz case as well...it was huge, and it was a real shame that he got into any sort of trouble at all. It seemed the criminals were victorious in that case.
Vermont has the best gun laws in the nation, but there is one strange drawback. In Vermont, you do not need a permit to carry a firearm. It is great and is as the founders intended. The problem is that without a permit a citizen cannot carry with reciprocity in other states. They'll fix that somehow though. In that respect Vermont is head and shoulders above other states. Alaska now follows the Vermont lead, btw.

No state lets you use a firearm to protect personal property.

Most state already have had the castle doctrine-no one should have to leave their homes. News that wasn't really news at all.
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Vermont
1,442 posts, read 5,898,152 times
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Regarding the Bernie Goetz case, one of the criminals was disabled from the shooting, I think permanently. The three others eventually got in trouble with the law pretty soon after that, although I don't know what the long-term outcomes were.

Years ago, a friend of mine was murdered. It was not known who the murderer was. I was originally told that she was killed by a burglar, but at the memorial service, other friends said they believed her abusive boyfriend did it. I remember what a speaker said at the memorial service: It is not necessary to dwell on who did this, as there is eventually justice. If there is no justice in this world, there is justice in the next world.

Of course, you have to believe in the immortality of the soul to derive comfort from those words. If they are true, tough, then no criminal gets away with it. Anyway, we colloquially speak of karma, and also say that what goes around comes around.

.........................

Texas is known for tough laws. But Dallas County, I believe, is known for incarcerating a lot of pepole who are later cleared by DNA evidence. Who knows how many other innocent people languish in prison in Texas, or in any other state for that matter, including Vermont?

Thank God for the Innocence Project, which is based here in NYC. This is the organization that uses DNA evidence to clear innocent people in prison. But I believe that you have to be in prison for at least 10 years before they will take your case.

Last edited by arel; 09-07-2008 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:38 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,206,840 times
Reputation: 9020
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkln View Post
Lilybeans - do you know how the VT and Texas gun laws compare? I know Texas has some sort of law where you can kill to protect your property - is it called the castle law? I forget now...does VT have a similar law?

Arel - I remember the Bernie Goetz case as well...it was huge, and it was a real shame that he got into any sort of trouble at all. It seemed the criminals were victorious in that case.
In TX you need a license to carry concealed (and with handguns you can only carry it concealed, you can get in trouble if even by accident it gets exposed). Only long guns can be openly carried in TX. The license is expensive and requires taking a class (more money). If a sign that meets the strict requirements of the law (simple no guns, slash through a gun, etc., don't work) says no guns in a business, you can get in trouble legally if you carry. In VT, there's no force to such signs. They can only ask you to leave, and if you refuse, it's a trespassing issue not a gun issue. No license required in VT, open carry is legal, of either handguns or long guns. The only thing banned in VT is silencers (which stinks because I want one for my .22 trapline gun to protect my ears, wearing earplugs isn't exactly convenient/practical while checking my trapline in the winter...). Oh well, at least you can own a machine gun or a grenade in VT (if you follow the federal NFA requirements...).
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:44 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,206,840 times
Reputation: 9020
Quote:
Originally Posted by arel View Post
This is one of the things that deter me. In NYC, we had the case of Bernhard Goetz, who shot four muggers on the subway. If I remember correctly, a grand jury refused to indict him on assault or attempted murder charges, but he got sent to jail for about a year for carrying a gun. And then he got sued, successfully, by the family of one of the muggers, who was left permanently disabled. "Bernie" Goetz became a bit of a folk hero in NYC, but the fact is that he paid dearly for his act of self-defense. There were political issues involved in his case as well.

I also remember a case where a burglar was injured by a booby-trapped window. He sued the homeowner and won, on the grounds that the protection of life is more important than the protection of property.

And women's prisons are full of women who are serving long sentences for defending themselves against abusive males.

I need to learn more about Vermont's laws and culture. It is obviously very different from that of New York City. But still, if you use deadly force, you will have to deal with the fallout, which could inflict serious emotional and financial damage to your life.
VT really needs to pass a "castle doctrine" law like other states (such as TX), to make it clear one doesn't need to retreat, to prevent civil lawsuits against those who defend themselves, etc. But our liberal lawmakers won't do any such thing I suspect. In any case, try to be sure there can be no argument if you ever need to shoot in self-defense that it wasn't a legitimate case of self-defense. Use a good gun, the worst thing you want to do is wound an attacker(s), who can then turn around and lie about what happened and get a jury feeling pity for the poor disabled thug...in a clearly justified shooting you shouldn't have a problem, and any lawsuits by the thugs or their families will be tossed in court most likely, but unfortunately not all cases are so clear...

Remember State v. Carlton if you ever get in the situation: State v. Carlton.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:52 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,185,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The only thing banned in VT is silencers (.
Check the penalty on that though-$25 fine. You have to get the Federal stamp though.
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