[LisaMc46]

You are paying for a good quality of life.

On the downside, my husband and I live paycheck to paycheck even though we have college degrees and significant work experience. I earn about $12 an hour; in N.J. I earned $60,000 a year (8 years ago) plus a yearly bonus. Property taxes have increased significantly in the past few years even though income has not. And, of course the long winters can take a toll. By April I'm usually in a bad mood that doesn't lift until the mud dries up.

But, on the positive side I live in a town with very little crime. I never lock my car doors unlike N.J. where I needed two different types of anti-theft systems and still paid $3000 a year in car insurance. I probably don't have to lock my house door either.

My kids go to schools with small teacher/student ratios and innovative curriculums. They spend time outside every day (the school playground is only closed if it's below zero degrees or raining). Rather than spending their free time shopping or sitting in front of giant flat-screen televisions like their cousins in N.J., they ski, play soccer or swim and participate in community theater shows.

While I don't always agree with the liberal politics here, I'm touched and amazed by how hard people in my community work to make it a nice place to live. From fundraising together to build a playground to creating a non-profit arts center to provide dance and arts instruction, the things that have been accomplished here in the past decade are quite impressive to say the least.

And then there's the natural beauty. I see mountains from every window of my small, but cozy house. On my lunch break I can walk or snowshoe on a beautiful recreation path that winds through meadows and forests. There are dozens of hiking trails within a short distance of where I live and there's a state park about 10 minutes away.

The bottom line is that unless you are coming with a trust fund or a bag full of Lotto winnings, you probably will find it difficult to maintain the same financial standard of living you have in N.J. But Vermont offers less tangible benefits that money can't buy.

Lisa

[flu189]

Speaking of employers quite a bit of what has been brought up in recent posts is very true and not fantasy or sour grapes with just a handful of unlucky folks. I work in a section of ten employees evenly split down the middle of native versus transplants to Vt. Every single one while employed in Vt has been laid off permanently from prior positions (all higher paying as well), and this was pre 2006 before the current economic situation. As far as commuting, yes a considerable number travel extensive distances. Currently in my section the farthest out comes from Newport 72 miles one way. In the winter it can take as long three hours due to the roads. Up until last year the mileage champ came from Danby, a distance of 91 miles, but gasoline prices and vehicle wear and tear broke his back. In my guard unit each and every month more members have lost their daily civilian jobs and the circle of distance continues to spread farther and farther out in search of even temp work. It's not that simple to sell and move with a family and this applies to renters as well. One of the biggest issues I see building with colleagues is the concern over transportation as so many drive vehicles that are almost shot and getting a new one or even an used one is out of reach. Out of state employers may frustrate some, but the truth is that wages are based on the local market which I agree is too low for the cost of living, but this is common across the country. Many workers do appear passive here about work and life in general being just willing to plod along and not make waves feeling that things are the way they are, but it is an employers market out there and any quasi uprising and demands will be met with an eager replacement to fill your slot often at even a lower wage. Now we will be hearing considerably more on the different phases of state cutbacks, minus a few sacred cows, and somewhat ironically many of the proposed cuts will do little. While I agree that the state payroll is bloated in many sections a proposed layoff of 10% combined with unpaid leave and furloughs will just add to the economic woes. Then of course taxing food, clothing, raising all fees will just mean less to spend at your favorite retailer. The biggest shock will come when the property tax prebate program is tinkered with and then I am sure that so many who up until now have not worried about paying their share will be shocked into reality. Lots and lots of stuff to be considering both for residents and newcomers alike.

[edkop]

Just wanted to say thanks to all who contribute to this thread and wish everyone a Merry Christmas! Have a safe and happy holiday!-Ed

[expatvermonter]

Follow up on my post.... Compared to NJ Vermont looks like paradise. But comparing Vermont to the pre-influx, it has gone down the toilet! Like LisaMC46 said she lives in a small town which is better than B'Town, but SERIOUS crime is coming there too. The link about the gang bangers carjacking some one at gunpoint was in Leicester a typical Vermont small town in the middle of nowhere near the quaint town of Brandon. My friend worked at KFC on Shelb Rd and caught on of the Somali refugees who worked there bathing naked in the big dish sink after closing. Vermont is changing for the worse. Diversity to me is a few people from other countries coming to share culture and cross pollinate ideas. The Old N End has become a 3rd world slum with gang bangers and refugees running the streets. If you work in B'Town try Milton. It is an easy 35 minutes from B'town, few problems, lower cost housing and a very clean town. Do not live in B'Town, Winooski, Barre, Rutland or Bennington. There are serious gang and drug problems there. ALL of it has come from Springfield MA, Hartford, CT and the S. Bronx. The liberal baby boomers stare at the gang bangers, clasp there hands in bliss and proclaim sewwt diversity. The truth is these poeple would have no qualms about shooting you in the head for $10 if the opportunity was there. More and more bangers are going to move here with this "open market drug bazaar" that Vermont has become. I think they people should come out in droves to push the legislature to offer drug DEALERS a life sentence or the option for sentence suspended if they leave the state and never return. Returning to VT would send them up the river for life. I am serious about carrying a handgun. It is not paranoia with all this going on.

There is a real reason that other states are scrambling to make sure their residents can carry handguns concealed. It is b/c innocent law abiding citizens are genuinely afraid, and this trend is growing with additional "stand your ground" laws being enacted as well. Look at this map (link below) and notice where Vermont has always been. notice what has happened in other states! Make sure you vote to keep it that way:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/right-to-carry-history.gif

Here is yet another incident:
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=9428125

THIS is whats coming here (copy of story WPTZ)!
Gangs of Vermont (Burlington, VT): Members of Killer Bronx Committee or KBC, a drug gang based in New York City, moved their drug operation to Winooski five years ago. Source: WPTZ 5 News Date: February 26, 2008
http://www.wptz.com/...

Here is an earlier post from "68vette" that sums it up:

"It may be shocking but there have been gangs coming or trying to settle in towns like Rutland(the Latin Kings fron Ct and NY). Who would have thought rural Iowa would have gang problems. MS-13 and many others are spreading like Cancer. For them it's a buisness. Vermont is prime for the picking. We want what they are selling(drugs). Vermont already has one of the highest Heroin rates in the country Heroin Treatment Admissions Increase: 1993-1999 "

[mustmove]

Expatvermonter you are so bad. Trying to scare away folks to keep beautiful peaceful VT all to yourself, for shame. We need to share the wonderful VT life so that others can see the wrongness of their ways. I bet if any those transplanted gangbangers ever visited Ben and Jerry's factory store they would be changed forever. No doubt they would put down their pistols, pick up a milking pail and embrace the VT way of life. Open your heart man, cynicism is so 'rat-race' it has no place here.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by expatvermonter

Do not live in B'Town, Winooski, Barre, Rutland or Bennington. There are serious gang and drug problems there.

You're entitled to your opinion, but to tell people NOT to live in these towns because of your conception of reality seems very strange to me. I'm fine with posts citing facts and stating opinions, no matter how optimistic or pessimistic. But how about leaving it to others to decide where and how they want to live?

I've lived in Rutland for 12 years. My husband has lived in Rutland for nearly 35 years. We find this to be a friendly, safe community. We lock our doors, but we'd do that anywhere because to us it's just common sense to do so.

I know there are drug problems here, but I'm wondering what you mean by "serious gang and drug problems." If you mean the kind that make it dangerous or intrusive for those of us just living our lives, doing our work, contributing to our communities, and enjoying ourselves, then I must disagree.

Is there anyone else who understands what I am challenging here? I am NOT saying that posters should adopt a sunny outlook, write only happy things, and ignore problems. I AM saying that there are wonderful people and institutions in all the towns where you have authoritatively told people not to live. My experiences in Rutland, and the experiences of my friends and colleagues who live in the other towns you so blithely dispose of in a sentence, are vastly different than what you describe. That's reality, too.

To me, stating one-sided viewpoints in hyperbolic terms as if they are facts that that will apply to everyone does not help people learn anything, except that you are upset. But maybe you're not trying to help people learn. Maybe you just want to express bitterness and hope others will join you.

What is it you are really trying to accomplish with that kind of communication?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by chaz longue

Wow.

I've lived in or near Burlington since 1961. I now live footsteps South of downtown Burlington, but I find the VT, and the Burlington you describe utterly unrecognizable.

Thank you! You said what I wanted to say and in far fewer words. :-)

[chaz longue]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

You're entitled to your opinion, but to tell people NOT to live in these towns because of your conception of reality seems very strange to me. I'm fine with posts citing facts and stating opinions, no matter how optimistic or pessimistic. But how about leaving it to others to decide where and how they want to live?

I've lived in Rutland for 12 years. My husband has lived in Rutland for nearly 35 years. We find this to be a friendly, safe community. We lock our doors, but we'd do that anywhere because to us it's just common sense to do so.

I know there are drug problems here, but I'm wondering what you mean by "serious gang and drug problems." If you mean the kind that make it dangerous or intrusive for those of us just living our lives, doing our work, contributing to our communities, and enjoying ourselves, then I must disagree.

Is there anyone else who understands what I am challenging here? I am NOT saying that posters should adopt a sunny outlook, write only happy things, and ignore problems. I AM saying that there are wonderful people and institutions in all the towns where you have authoritatively told people not to live. My experiences in Rutland, and the experiences of my friends and colleagues who live in the other towns you so blithely dispose of in a sentence, are vastly different than what you describe. That's reality, too.

To me, stating one-sided viewpoints in hyperbolic terms as if they are facts that that will apply to everyone does not help people learn anything, except that you are upset. But maybe you're not trying to help people learn. Maybe you just want to express bitterness and hope others will join you.

What is it you are really trying to accomplish with that kind of communication?

Thank you, Sherylcatmom.

[expatvermonter]

There should be NO crime in Vermont except for someone stealing Christmas ornaments or the 1-2 murders a year where some guy kills his wife in an arguement (not that thats right). I guess you didn't read the link or remember the mad gunman in Essex on the rampage shooting teachers in cold blood. Let's see... I think that started b/c the mother didn't want her daughter dating a gang banger, ex drug dealer from.... Where else....You guesses it.... Springfield Mass! There are too many violent incidents to list them all. How about this past year in Winooski where the guy (from the inner city) shot his girlfriend in the head and killed her. How about when the Winooski Police arrested a guy for drunk driving and let his girlfriend walk home. She was gang raped by 2 Somalis on Weaver Street! Remember the Crip from LA that was arrested in a quaint motel in Stowe on federal gun running charges? You are walking around in denial about what your city and state have become. The point is Vermont is about Maple Syrup, quiet little villages and sleigh rides. It is becoming overrun (compared to what it was) with hoodlums. Walk down Church Street to the bottom at 2AM SHARP when the bars let out. Stand in front of Second Floor and Rasputins and SEE the street thugs who congregate intimidating even the meek Burlington Police. I have lived in Burlington and Winooski and drove a cab for Queen City Cab when times were slow. Don't even go there about how sweet and idyllic Burlington is. Yes Church St is lovely during the day when the druggies are passed out and the tourists come out to frolic. Sure you can walk safely up Main Street to UVM, but to say there is no violent crime is just absurd, and to ignore who is doing it is idiotic! Orlando Florida was a BEAUTIFUL city in 1997. Now look at it!!! That is EXACTLY where Vermont is heading in a hurry. The fact is if you come from NJ, NYC or MA and you encourage social programs or are soft on crime and punishment, you are the cause of it! People should be out in droves doing whatever is necessary to get these hoodlums out of town! VT is turning into a magnet for gang bangers, and the apathy among the "do gooder" liberals (and I am no right wing republican) is pathetic! You get what you deserve. Go to City Market, crunch some overpriced granola, sip a latte, and stick you head in the sand!

Before you dismiss me as some kook, someone with an ax to grind, or being paranoid you REALLY should read this confidential police report by informants that became public about the SERIOUSNESS of interstate gang and drug trafficing into Burlington Vermont from "points south" (MA, NJ Etc).

http://www.geocities.com/paulduprat/Time0701.txt

Hey... Here you go. Take a look at Stephen Marsh... He represents your new neighbor!
WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-Winooski Man Charged With Murdering Girlfriend

Like I said Orlando was BEAUTIFUL just 11 years ago.... This is Burlington in 10 years or less....

Here is a post from "SUNRICO90" on City-data forum:
Is this affecting the tourism? or the introduction of new companies to the area?

Murders surged in cities across Florida in the first half of the year, but nowhere as much as in Orlando, according to a report released Monday by the FBI.

The city's murder rate more than tripled from January through June, compared with the first six months of 2005.

Other violent crimes spiked as well. Orlando posted the third-biggest jump in rapes and robberies among the state's 10 largest cities and had the largest increase in arsons, according to the report.

The city tied Miami, which has nearly twice the population, with the second-largest number of murders -- 30 -- in Florida. Only Jacksonville, which is nearly four times bigger, had more: 70.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-f...ostemailedlink

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by expatvermonter

There should be NO crime in Vermont except for someone stealing Christmas ornaments or the 1-2 murders a year where some guy kills his wife in an arguement (not that thats right).

Why? Because you said so? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Vermont's a place that, like any other place, is impacted by issues within and beyond its borders, as we see regularly. Just because there's more crime than you think there should be doesn't mean it makes sense to tell people not to move to towns you've designated as no good.

Originally Posted by expatvermonter

I guess you didn't read the link or remember the mad gunman in Essex on the rampage shooting teachers in cold blood.

Of course I read about and remember this horrible incident. I have no idea how that's supposed to prove your point. Maybe because I don't really know what your point is. Except that you're unhappy and disillusioned. Well, okay, but there's no need to slander "most" people from New Jersey or completely dismiss entire towns in Vermont that may have lots to offer those considering living here.

Originally Posted by expatvermonter

Don't even go there about how sweet and idyllic Burlington is.

Hmm, I don't remember anyone going there. I never said there is NO violent crime in Vermont or Burlington, and I didn't see anyone else here saying that either. I only remember you telling people not to live there and then citing all kinds of articles/statistics about Orlando and Miami???? This all makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by expatvermonter

Orlando Florida was a BEAUTIFUL city in 1997. Now look at it!!! That is EXACTLY where Vermont is heading in a hurry.

I think that's a very strange statement. I'm a Miami native. In 1987, I was job-hunting and apartment-hunting in Orlando and decided I'd rather live in Northern New England because I found Orlando to be a paved-over conspicuous-consumption nightmare, and it had been that way a long time before 1987.

I've never regretted my decision to move to New England and I consider it my home. I don't think I harbor illusions as to what it's really like here. My husband and I work hard for what we have. As with any place, it's imperfect and we enjoy contributing to our community by participating in the process at local and state levels, and by volunteering regularly. We'd rather live, work, and play here than anywhere else. Luckily, that seems to be working out well for us.

I'm not sure why reading people's experiences of living in in Vermont causes you to trot out articles and statistics about Florida, or why it would motivate you to go on a rant about whose fault the crime is, but that's very OT for this thread. How about returning to the OP's questions and the discussion at hand?