[kerrybean]

mustmove, I'm glad you are doing better in MA and thanks for the warnings about taxes and living in tourist areas!

Originally Posted by LisaMc46

Honestly, if you're approaching retirement and have a good nest egg problem # 2 shouldn't affect you. You just need to figure out if you could be happy with the harsh weather and high taxes.

I would definately rent in Vermont for a year or so before you decide to move here permanently.

I would consider moving (probably south to NC) but I have a feeling that things are starting to fall apart economically everywhere so I'm staying put for now.

Lisa, we are new retirees and our nest egg took a hit, just like almost everyone else. We originally come from CT and upper MI, but its been 20 years since then, so while I know we enjoy winter a lot, I wonder if missing it has given us rose-colored glasses. I hear you about renting first! And I agree that in the current economic situation it's probably not a good time to make a move.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by JM1822

Just out of curiosity, how much do you guys think a person would need to make to live in Vermont? Everyone talks about low paying jobs, but what do you think a family would need to make to live comfortably?

People have given answers to this that are way more than I'd ever need to live comfortably in Vermont, but everyone lives differently so the answer depends on many factors including:

1. What are your family's financial needs compared with other families?
2. What are your family's preferred lifestyle and spending levels? (E.g., cable/satellite TV? Paid housekeeper? Travel? Dining out? Club memberships?)
   
3. Where in Vermont will you live? Expenses vary considerably from one location to another
4. Will someone have a job providing health insurance and other benefits or will you be paying those out of pocket?

[kerrybean]

MRV, I'm curious why you believe that Portland ME offers more than Burlington (we previously considered both areas)?

Originally Posted by flu189

If you are retired then the choice falls into what features of an area you value and enjoy, your ability to afford the area, and maybe special needs such as access to medical facilities to deal with acute or chronic conditions.

Finally, your preferences on personal matters such as religion and politics should be factored in if it is a very important criteria.

flu, we are seeking beauty, safety, peace, 4 (or 5! ha!) seasons, and the opportunity to play outdoors, while still being close to quality medical care. We'd like to live where politics and religion are not so in-your-face, but more one's own personal business. I imagine it would be a financial sacrifice to move to NE, but the northern "roots" are calling really loudly.

ex-springfielder, I'm glad Maine is working out for you! We had thought about relocating outside of Portland in a small town, but the housing prices seemed even higher than outside of Burlington. However the property tax differences you shared are quite amazing! We've got VT, NH, and ME on the table and are trying to figure out the pros & cons of each.

To everyone, this forum has been an amazing help and just generally interesting to read (which I've done for a long time). I'm semi-addicted! Thanks so much.

[JM1822]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

People have given answers to this that are way more than I'd ever need to live comfortably in Vermont, but everyone lives differently so the answer depends on many factors including:

1. What are your family's financial needs compared with other families?
2. What are your family's preferred lifestyle and spending levels? (E.g., cable/satellite TV? Paid housekeeper? Travel? Dining out? Club memberships?)
   
3. Where in Vermont will you live? Expenses vary considerably from one location to another
4. Will someone have a job providing health insurance and other benefits or will you be paying those out of pocket?

If I actually moved to Vermont, I would have a job with health insurance. We would prefer the Northern part of the state. My family (wife, child, and myself) enjoy going on short trips (kayaking, hiking, camping, etc) and only take one or two long trips a year. We don't need a mansion, just an average house with a couple acres. No club memberships and we only dine out as a family once or twice a month (except on days we work, since my spouse and I are both on the road 40 hours a week.)

Now, for the sake of discussion, we'll say that the average person asking this question would have a spouse and two kids. They would have to have two vehicles and would have an average commute to work. I guess we'll throw child care in there also since two working members of the family are almost a guarantee these days. Basically, what would the average American family need to make to have a home and afford to pay the bills and still have enough left over to have a little fun once in a while.

I wish I was obnoxious enough to just ask everyone how much THEY make and if they feel it is enough to live on.

[JM1822]

Here's a better way of asking the money question. The median household income in 2004 was $44,000. Would $44,000 a year buy a home and still have a little left over or do those folks live pay check to pay check?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by JM1822

Here's a better way of asking the money question. The median household income in 2004 was $44,000. Would $44,000 a year buy a home and still have a little left over or do those folks live pay check to pay check?

That would be more than enough for my husband and me! But we don't live near Burlington or an expensive town like Norwich. And we live a relatively simple, low cost lifestyle. Our most expensive "habit" is that we like to go out to eat. If money were a bit easier right now, I believe I'd hire a housekeeper for a day every other week.

[flu189]

The amount of gross household income for a family of four to be comfortable is indeed variable, but I would say the minimum gross should be between 70 and 80k per year. After taxes, housing, utilities, insurance, food, transportation, this would leave very little extra, but it covers the essentials. If you want to factor personal preferences such as recreation, education, savings, travel, entertainment, then add onto this figure. If daycare has to figure in then this could add a considerable amount to the total figure. A problem I see with many folks trying to establish budgets is that they short themselves in many categories. Be realistic and factor in cost increases. Energy costs over the past few years and no doubt into the future will break many budgets. We have now seen $4.00+ per gallon gasoline/heating oil and know what a dent that can make. In my case a $2.00 p/gallon increase in fuel (motor/heating) annually requires an additional $4800 net dollars which basically translates into an extra $3.50 per hour gross wage needed. Wages are stagnant and other costs rise as well. For a family with kids you already know what grocery increases look like. Also, another factor I see many not calculate into living expenses involves repair and replacement costs. Do you really think that your vehicles will not break down, your roof will not leak, your water heater and washer will last for thirty years? Think again and factor this in to your equations. Of course there will be folks who insist and dream of bare essential living and that's fine, but you yourself and your family has to decide how bare bones you are really willing to go. If your expected Vermont income comes up short versus your budget list then you will have to scale down your budget and dreams. Be very mindful as well as to perceived savings, like in auto insurance. Yes it cheaper here, no I did not garner this savings into disposable income as it merely went to cover other expenses.

[68vette]

If you are looking into living in the Burlington area and owning a home the answer is no way. I live in Colchester and it's more affordable than Burlington or South Burlington and it would be just about impossible, unless you were willing to live in one of the trailer parks and few conveniences. Now with that said, if you could pay for most of your home with cash it would be a different story. I will share some of my finances. We bought our home in 2001 for 245,000(I'm not 100% sure, but it's within 5000). We put $40,000 down and have a $1600 payment including property taxes. The average house in my neighborhood now is between 300,000-400,000. On our current payment plan, oil costs 240 per month for 10 months. Then you add in utilities. We have a bundle package through Comcast for phone, cable and internet for a little over 250 per month. Then throw in groceries, car payment and insurance, fuel, cell phones, electric, etc, etc. With just the necessary conveniences it will eat up all of that income. If you were willing to live in a more rural setting or outside of the Burlington area you could do it.
Also be careful if you find something cheap. There could be a good reason for it. We took our home inspector(highly recommended and respected) to court over a major issue that was missed on the inspection. We ended up settling, but it still cost us 15,000 in repairs. In his defense an inspector can't possibly find every problem in one day, but in our case it was something that should have been seen right off.

[Duff in VT]

Kerrybean. I have lived in Vermont my whole life and my husband's family has been here since the 1700's so moving away is not an option for us. We love other areas of New England and often say how lovely the beach is in Maine or how awesome White Mountains, etc. But we cannot even imagine a move with such strong roots to this state. Taxes, winters, economy.. we will just tough it out and work hard and live a simple life.

That said, I work in a town where almost everyone has moved from another state. Many retirees have moved here from CT, MA or NY and live happy and productive lives. The economy has hurt everyone and I do see signs of discontent with taxes, food and fuel costs, etc., but I believe this is happening everywhere. Many in this area either have a home in Florida or vacation for part of the winter in a warmer place.

My advice to you would be to rent first. Many of this town's residents first rented, got a feel for the area, then bought. Renting not only gives you time to explore the vicinity (as well as other parts of the state) but time to become involved in the community, make friends, volunteer, etc. It also gives you the time to decide what and where your ideal home will be. Lots of folks here rented, kept an eye out for homes going on the market, and when their "dream home" came up for sale, snapped it up.

OK - no flaming on this item please !!! Make sure the town offers the kind of social setting you feel comfortable with. If it is a town where other people from your area have retired to, you will probably find friends and activities to your liking. Not to say Vermonters are not social, but many of us are just so busy with family responsibilities and jobs that the kind of socializing found elsewhere is not really something we "do". Just my opinion, but I have seen many people move to a town made up of mostly working or farming folks, and be disapponted that they were not invited to dinner, etc. In the town where I reside, there are no dinner or cocktail parties. In the town where I work, there are dinner and cocktail parties galore. I have seen people move from this town to a more rural town only to be very lonely without the kind of social gatherings they enjoy.

Good luck with your move !

[flu189]

I should have clarified in my estimate earlier, that amount will not put a family of four into decent housing in the Burlington area and still cover all the normal and essential bills. Some may argue this, but for a family of four both ownership/taxes or renting is high here. You might get lucky and find a deal, but you can't live on luck. Also, do want to cram your family into a two bedroom? Many do, but I feel most would not view this as ideal living. Several of my coworkers with families live well outside the area and commute. It's a trade off. Do you want save 30, 40, 50k on a home, but add the expense and time of commuting to your lifestyle?